What are your thoughts on copied/illegally downloaded games?

[Teknobry]

I remember speaking to someone in l4d chat on steam about this, and they were of the firm opinion that under no circumstances should you ever have a dodgy copy of a game.

Although I can understand their point, take the following example:

My brother is 17 and in college. He is skint and has to rely on his parents for cash, as alot of kids his age do. He plays video games, but not a massive amount by any means. He downloaded a copy of bioshock.
Now, my argument is this: The game developers are NOT losing out because of his downloading. If he went into a shop and stole a copy, then yes they are losing money because of the cost of the DVD and the case etc, but torrenting the game costs nothing, there is nothing tangible which has been taken.

They are also not losing out on missed profits, because if he were unable to download a dodgy copy, he would not purchase it anyway, he would simply do without. Now, you might say that well he should miss out, because its not fair him playing the game for free and you buying it, which is fair enough. But you were in a position to be able to buy the game, whereas he is not.

Piracy only causes harm when people choose whether to buy or illegally download the material. In this case, there was no choice, he wouldn't spend £30 on a game, as A) he doesn't have that cash, and B) if he did he'd spend it on something far more useful.

My position is different, I have the means and funds to be able to purchase games, and if i decided to use his dodgy copy of bioshock then I agree that the developers would be losing out, and in a small way harming the gaming industry.

[PewPew]

The game developers are NOT losing out because of his downloading. If he went into a shop and stole a copy, then yes they are losing money because of the cost of the DVD and the case etc, but torrenting the game costs nothing, there is nothing tangible which has been taken.

Isn't that a potential $50 or £30 that the company loses out on though?

[DJTricky]

Isn't that a potential $50 or £30 that the company loses out on though?
if he were unable to download a dodgy copy, he would not purchase it anyway

[hooray for zombies]

They are also not losing out on missed profits, because if he were unable to download a dodgy copy, he would not purchase it anyway, he would simply do without. Now, you might say that well he should miss out, because its not fair him playing the game for free and you buying it, which is fair enough. But you were in a position to be able to buy the game, whereas he is not.


Edit: damn, beaten to it

[PewPew]

Whoops then.

[Capo Di Tutti Capi]

Piracy only causes harm when people choose whether to buy or illegally download the material.

i hv plenty of pirated games that i wudnt hv got unless it was possible 2 pirate, starcraft, star wars: rogue squadron, rag doll masters and super steal ball and n-ball all hv pirated verification codes, plenty of games, i am not against downloading a game, 4 instance, if america's army wasnt free i wudnt hv got it, but as it was i did, what else...

rome total war: and its expansion barbarian invasion, expansion is actually torrented nd rome is borrowed off a friend whio didnt want it

i think that it is totally upto u 2 decide whether or not 2 dwnld free material, but i generally get stuff free because i cant afford it, cs:s and dod:s, those sorts of games r different, they cost $9.95 u.s. it didt feel right 2 get illegal copy,WoW i had an illegal version but i grew out of it because there waere 2 few ppl playing

1 of my friends got 50 PS2 games and gave any doubles 2 me, and i bought some games off him 4 $7 each, which is a lot less then some are worth

nup, downloading games is fine.

[Tarron]

piracy is bad, i know that, and sometimes i get some myself, i would never sell them or anything like that, i get a game to see if its worth it, if i enjoy it then i will buy it, ive done it with plenty of games, ive downloaded played, then bought (dm q3/4 civ4 oblivion, c&c etc... actually ive never done it to a hl game though lol) same goes for films. the only other time is a few ps2 games that i couldnt get hold of unless i wanted to spend a extortionate price on a rare game.
this ast year ive barely downloaded anything like it though. guilty conscience i think lol

[Teknobry]

i think that it is totally upto u 2 decide whether or not 2 dwnld free material

Please don't mistake illegal torrenting with free material.

America's army = free
Most of those other games you listed = not free, downloaded illegally.

Like you say though, if you can't afford it then I don't think its that bad.

[DJTricky]

I think that all games that are past their prime, such as every single SNES game should have the ROM loaded onto a website and put up for freeware.... but nooooo, they have to block all rom downloading from games that you could only get off ebay...

[globalenjoi]

Tek, I love you for posting that. I'm in the same position as your brother, in college, with little money. Games are a passion for me, and if I couldn't torrent them, I'd have to miss out on a lot of great ones. I don't feel that I'm doing any harm downloading them, because as you said, even if I couldn't download them, I wouldn't buy them because it's not in the budget.

On a different note, I notice you used the word "dodgy". Oh how I wish I could use that term, or at least hear it more often. It's one of my favorite words.... Why do Europeans get to be so damn COOL?

[frogopus]

It seems the main point here is that they don't stand to lose money because they would have never gotten that money from you, which raises two points:

1. How do you differentiate between the person who would have never bought it because they don't have the money, and the person who does have the money but chooses to download because they can. While you may reason why its okay for you to download it, and if I could not argue that, I can still say that there are others who are still costing developers potential profit because illegal downloading exists.

2. Imagine you have $50 to spend on one new game every 6 months. Game A, B, C, and D came out and you would love to play all of them. Since you're short on funds, you download these games for free. Most likely, if you are using this argument you will not say okay I'll buy C because it deserves it and download the others. No company gets your money.

If downloading was not an option, you would choose C.

[Teknobry]

1. How do you differentiate between the person who would have never bought it because they don't have the money, and the person who does have the money but chooses to download because they can

Quite simply, you can't. Its down to the individual as to whether they wish to support future game development and buy a copy, or add to its demise by pirating.

I can still say that there are others who are still costing developers potential profit because illegal downloading exists.

I fully agree with you.

2. Imagine you have $50 to spend on one new game every 6 months. Game A, B, C, and D came out and you would love to play all of them. Since you're short on funds, you download these games for free. Most likely, if you are using this argument you will not say okay I'll buy C because it deserves it and download the others. No company gets your money.

In that situation i suppose, you'd buy the one in which you had the most to gain by having a legitimate copy, such as having a good, secure multiplayer side to it etc. You are right though, there are plenty of people who just wouldn't bother buying any at all.

I suppose what I'm loosely getting at, is that in certain circumstances I have no problems with software piracy, and even condone it. In the majority of times though, its wrong, and steps need to be taken to make it harder to crack games.

[Teknobry]

On a different note, I notice you used the word "dodgy". Oh how I wish I could use that term, or at least hear it more often. It's one of my favorite words.... Why do Europeans get to be so damn COOL?

haha! If none of your mates say it, you should start using it and start a trend :D

[theghoul22]

this is the same crap as music , bottom line they make more money then they should already pirating is the answer to infection

[PewPew]

So... how do you pirate games? ('< ') (' >')

[engagequadlaser]

I pirate, but not because I'm poor or can't afford them, but because I'm morally bankrupt. If a game turns out to be exceptional, like a bioshock, or half life 2, then I typically end up buying it. But half the software that these software-mills churn out tends to be a steaming pile of shit, hence why I don't feel any remorse when I play it for free, see it's a pile of shit, and then remove it's sad presence from my hard drive.

[tonjohn]

What a terrible argument. Just because you aren't stealing a physical item does not mean that you are not stealing.

You want to know what new releases cost $49 to $59? Because of people like your brother. Companies lose hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more to piracy. You should always legally obtain your software (and music).

By supporting piracy, you support what could be the death of affordable gaming.

[Teh Swat]

I've pirated so many games/music/videos, if the MPAA/RIAA found me, they could retire early.

Then again, I'm Canadian. So fuck that shit, I'm protected.

[tonjohn]

FYI, admitting to piracy off the steam forums can and will get you banned on the steam forums.

[frogopus]

I've had to recently remove a few threads that condoned and advocated piracy, but I felt that a decent discussion on the ethics of it was fine. Nonetheless this thread walks a fine line. I would recommend talking from a removed perspective and strictly remain argumentative for argument's sake.

this is the same crap as music , bottom line they make more money then they should already pirating is the answer to infection

Which is why record studios are closing and merging at an alarming rate and people are being put out of work? Perhaps the musicians and a few higher ups aren't feeling the sting but there is a whole industry with a lot of every day workers who might.

What a terrible argument. Just because you aren't stealing a physical item does not mean that you are not stealing.
The argument didn't claim that it was not stealing, but that it was not harmful as a non tangible item cannot cause a loss for the company, and that it would not cause a loss to potential profits if it would not have been bought in the first place.

This is similar to work, where we throw away countless magazines. I would lose my job if I ever took one of these even though they were just going to waste. It is still considered loss of a potential profit and I would never think of taking one.

[Rannos]

Only game I've directly pirated (rather than borrowed from a friend so we could lan,) is one that could not be found anywhere else. And it was barely even worth downloading, I've found out. (Road to Fiddler's Green is the game in question.)

[globalenjoi]

You want to know what new releases cost $49 to $59? Because of people like your brother. Companies lose hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more to piracy. You should always legally obtain your software (and music).

I'm willing to bet that the prices are mainly going up due to increased development time and an increase in the amount of employees. Oh, and the fact that new hardware required to run said games is expensive. Not simply because people occasionally download games...

Oh, and I dunno about you, but where I live, PC new releases are still $50.

[lilsamuraijoe]

I pay for my games.

[tonjohn]

frogopus,

If a person is going to go through the trouble of illegally obtaining software, they would have purchased the game if piracy was not an option.

Regardless of what poor arguments pirates create to legitimize what they do, they are hurting lots and lots of people, including average joes.

[frogopus]

If a person is going to go through the trouble of illegally obtaining software, they would have purchased the game if piracy was not an option.
I disagree, it is hardly trouble at all in this situation and there are many who download what they would not pay for (as one would rent a movie rather than own, so would someone steal rather than rent)

Regardless of what poor arguments pirates create to legitimize what they do, they are hurting lots and lots of people, including average joes.
I agree, I just think it is important to understand these arguments. Many seem to have decided that they are fighting some great cause here, while enjoying free products.

[Shrubberyjsc]

But half the software that these software-mills churn out tends to be a steaming pile of shit, hence why I don't feel any remorse when I play it for free, see it's a pile of shit, and then remove it's sad presence from my hard drive.


I think a lot of people have, at one time or another, felt betrayed by the game industry, and have justified using piracy as their way of striking back.

I foresee Left 4 Dead facing very little threat from piracy. There's the obvious Steam component to that, but also because TRS is doing several things right, such as listening to their constituents.

[globalenjoi]

TRS is doing several things right, such as listening to their constituents.


WHAT?!?! You mean they either A) decided to go ahead with the summer release or B) have decided to release a beta/free weekend within the next week.

THIS IS MADNESS!!!

edit: My Bioshock download just mysteriously deleted at 80% done =( This makes me soooo very sad.

[tp500]

I download games because a) I dont wanna spend 80 bucks on a new game and have it turn out to be really shitty. and b) I wanna make sure it'll run before I go and buy it for good.

I also do some games like I do bands. I download most of my music, like im sure most of us do, but when I want to support the band, I go and buy the album even though I downloaded the whole thing. The same goes with games, if I play a game and really like it and hope the developer makes more, I'll go out and buy it. In the case of Left 4 Dead, I might even buy it on PC and 360 because I worship TRS for creating this game. My view is, until games stop being made because of illegal downloading, I dont really care.

[Shrubberyjsc]

Quoting: Shrubberyjsc
TRS is doing several things right, such as listening to their constituents.


WHAT?!?! You mean they either A) decided to go ahead with the summer release or B) have decided to release a beta/free weekend within the next week.


Notice I was somewhat ambiguous. They listen, that's all I said. They have done a few things based on what we've said, (such as less gore sprayed on screen) but obviously they can't release it or a demo of it now.

Sorry to hear about your D/L. =/

[DJTricky]

I do this for music. I'm not really going to buy a whole CD just for select songs. Most of the songs I don't even like, so I just Limewire the good ones.

[Fish_Elite]

regardless if you weren't going to buy the game if you couldn't dl it there is still the expence of man power and hours spent on trying to protect a game from those that illigally dl it so your costing the company money in that sense just by participating in it. Then again there is the fact that every one wouild have to stop in order for this not to cost the company money in a sense it just keeps honest people honest...and just slows down those who would dl it... we have to start some where though right?

[tonjohn]

&quot;Like you say though, if you can't afford it then I don't think its that bad.&quot;

So if I can't afford a Ferrari then it is ok to steal one? I think everyone here would say &quot;no.&quot;

Gaming is a luxury hobby. If you can't afford it then find a friend who can. But don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Interesting note: id, a company who has always been dedicated to the PC gaming industry, is shifting their focus on consoles and mobile devices due to piracy.

[DJTricky]

You can't torrent Ferraris.. you cant even torrent Torrents

[Shrubberyjsc]

If you could torrent Ferraris, I think there would be a lot of people doing that.

[Fish_Elite]

lol i was looking at this p[afe and one of the ads reads

Company Steals Sofware?
Earn up to 1 Million for reporting Software Piracy - All confidential

Made me laugh

[hooray for zombies]

another one says

I was scammed 37 times
These Programs Are Absolute Scams I Will Show You The Ones That Work

a) Fix your grammar and capitalization first, then we'll talk
b)Why would I believe you? you are quite obviously the hugest sucker in the world

[engagequadlaser]

&quot;Like you say though, if you can't afford it then I don't think its that bad.&quot;

So if I can't afford a Ferrari then it is ok to steal one? I think everyone here would say &quot;no.&quot;

Gaming is a luxury hobby. If you can't afford it then find a friend who can. But don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Interesting note: id, a company who has always been dedicated to the PC gaming industry, is shifting their focus on consoles and mobile devices due to piracy.

If ferrari's were intangible pieces of software, and the developer wasn't going to get my money to begin with, what do they lose by me downloading one?

[tonjohn]

I find it sickening that people try to justify hurting others and engaging in illegal acts.

[D_Smid4499]

People who actually pirate use Share sites and not torrents, lawl I wouldn't call torrenting pirating, by the time it takes you could have made alot of money. SHARE SITES FTW!!!! Once a share site pirate always a share site pirate, unfortunately 0Day is dying down, losing ppl.

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

tonjohn you seem a little too passionate about this subject...its gonna be okay.
personally, i have actually never even thought of illegally downloading a game...
it barely has ever crossed my mind.
Actually, my friend just got PacSteam, or whatever the hell its called, and i told him that i hope he got lots of viruses, since he got like 100+games for free...lol, but then the steam community caused PacSteam to never work again!! lol!!!

[tonjohn]

Well lets see....

I work for a Game Developer and will eventually be a game developer. So why would I take this seriously? Hmm...

What is your friend's steam account name?

[tp500]

hahah cause he'd tell you and try to get him banned.

[BigFinger]

no need for vg piracy...

want a game ? get the fucking demo and see if you like it.. if you do go out and buy it.. simple enough.

keep the developers who made it in a bloody job so you don't have to come onto a forum and complain that a software house has shut in the middle of developing a game you were planning on pirating when it came out.

piracy is the reason more game come out on consoles first or are a blatant port of a console game.. its killing pc gaming, if you pirate i hope your next shits a hedgehog !

that said.... application software piracy in my experience is less dangerous as due to the complexity of many apps and programs its the support asd knowledge on how to use them that your paying for and most people do not mind paying for that and if you do there are many free generic programs to do what you want around.... the gimp for instance.



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[USS_Stud]

I have kind of a hypocritical view on pirated games. I hate when people just blatantly pirate and half their harddrive is just pirated games.

A couple games I've pirated, but I'll give some reasons why.
Max Payne 2. Great game, but too old to go out my way to search for it and drop $10. That's gas money. Plus the PC version has mods (main reason I pirated). Cinema Mod ftw.

Monster Hunter Freedom 2 (PSP). I downloaded the JP version (came out first) to see how the game was. It loaded areas in .2-.5 seconds. I bought the US version when it came out (UMD) and it took 2-5 seconds to load areas! WOAH! So I downloaded again to run off the memory card. But I always keep the game in my PSP, just as if I were playing off it.

[snarkeater]

I don't usually pirate; I see it sort of like stealing, but that's just my opinion. I am not far above trying a game that someone else has pirated though. One game I am considering pirating is Grim Fandango, just because I don't feel like paying $20 on eBay for a game that's not made anymore.

[Omega Man]

I find it sickening that people try to justify hurting others and engaging in illegal acts.
Gotta say I agree.

Dudes, no matter how you justify it... pirating is bad, mkay? You shouldn't pirate games. Cuz pirating games is bad, mkay?

tonjohn you seem a little too passionate about this subject.
Yeah, you seem way too into that whole &quot;law&quot; thing, and too much against doing patently illegal things. Lighten up, man.

want a game ? get the fucking demo and see if you like it.. if you do go out and buy it.. simple enough.
What he said.

[Omega Man]

I don't usually pirate; I see it sort of like stealing, but that's just my opinion.
Uh, no, it actually is stealing. :)

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

yeah, like i said, never really thought of doing it...
dont to it! stay in school dammit!

[dontleave]

Pretty sure no one is getting 'hurt'. Im not in the industry myself but unless the developers don't get paid until the game is released, and then paid commission for every sale, then they're fucked. Otherwise, if they're paid man hours during developement, then they're fine. Of course im talking small scale, company/industry scale im sure theres some sort of impact, but really, you don't see game developers going on strike do you?... Do you?

Pirating games is too much a hastle for me, I mean... Do something illegal, takes time and could potentially flop and or fuck up your computer. OR, take a 5 minute drive, buy the game, play it and be innocent 'till supper.

Not to say I haven't pirated games before, but its mostly the classics. If AvP2 was freeware or even pirateable I'd get it in a heart beat. Or IF someone like myself were to have pirated games, he would have actually gotten it off someone whos distributing the game, and thus actually paying for it. Hypothetically; if this was happening, he is still paying... just not to the right people, and to a thief. A whooole 'nother form of illegal, but still. Hypothetically of course... Atleast im not in the underground swash buckling pirate syndicate like D_co...err, smid is.

[BigFinger]

Pretty sure no one is getting 'hurt'. Im not in the industry myself but unless the developers don't get paid until the game is released, and then paid commission for every sale, then they're fucked. Otherwise, if they're paid man hours during developement, then they're fine. Of course im talking small scale, company/industry scale im sure theres some sort of impact, but really, you don't see game developers going on strike do you?... Do you?

the dev's will be salaried and therefore the money is paid by the company to them every month before release. im guessing your still in school or know little of how companies work. or you would realise how silly your argument is.

if the company is not making money because its products are being pirated (stolen) then they don't pay the devs or bin the project completely...or worse still they churn into EA and mindlessly churn out sequels to established cash cows....

pirating is like those signs that say 'my little bit of litter wont hurt' against a backdrop of a messy street.... sure your ONE copy wont hurt but add it to the thousands that are there and youve got a massive problem and we end up with things like steam (a very good thing imho) and safedisk n secure rom (fucking terrible things).


remember people ask not what gaming can do for you but what you can do for gaming !!


Or IF someone like myself were to have pirated games, he would have actually gotten it off someone whos distributing the game, and thus actually paying for it. Hypothetically; if this was happening, he is still paying... just not to the right people, and to a thief

thats just pure shite .....

.





.

[Teknobry]

&quot;Like you say though, if you can't afford it then I don't think its that bad.&quot;

So if I can't afford a Ferrari then it is ok to steal one? I think everyone here would say &quot;no.&quot;

Gaming is a luxury hobby. If you can't afford it then find a friend who can. But don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Please re-read my post about tangible products. Torrenting does NOT cost the developers a penny, unlike stealing a ferrari. If torrents were not available, he would simply not play or buy the game.

I'm sorta playing devils advocate here because as I've said, on the whole I totally disagree with piracy, yet I understand why my bro does it.

[D_Smid4499]

It's funny how everyone calls it stealing, it's the EXACT same thing as borrowing the game off a friend, how do you think they get the games? They go and buy 4 copies, and rip to an .iso file, jesus this is funny, stealing, if I didn't pirate I wouldn't have even bought most of the games because demo's are put in a way to make the game look really good, and most of the games these days are just pure crap.

[BigFinger]

Please re-read my post about tangible products. Torrenting does NOT cost the developers a penny, unlike stealing a ferrari. If torrents were not available, he would simply not play or buy the game.

I'm sorta playing devils advocate here because as I've said, on the whole I totally disagree with piracy, yet I understand why my bro does it.

it is stealing plain and simple...torrents are stealing plain and simple....if he cant afford it but he's playing it then he has stolen it plain and simple.

i as a keen gamer can understand why he want to play the latest stuff BUT if he can afford the rig to play the latest stuff then why can he NOT afford the games ?

he supports Nvidia or ATI, AMD or intel etc etc by buying their products and contributing to their r&d budget and therefore future better products therefore he should give the game developers the same consideration.

just because its a game doesn't mean the same blood sweat and tears went into it so why not pay ???

if he was pirating music off torrents for his own listening then thats stealing too ! so why (as devils advocate) are games different ??


.

[Teknobry]

He can't afford the latest rig, he's using my cast off bits that I give him when I upgrade my parts. He plays the games on lower detail settings so they run smoothly. Am sure when he's finished college and got himself a decent job he'll be buying parts and games, until then though, he has to make do with torrents and old pc parts.

As for the stealing thing, well, bit of a grey area, as he didn't 'steal' the game off the manufacturer, he didn't steal the game from a games shop, he downloaded lots of little parts of the code from many different people. He's copied it, not stole it. This goes back to the 'tangible' argument, hence why the companies are not losing out any money.

Just to state, I'm replying to a very specific situation here.


I don't think music &amp; games torrenting is different at all, in my opinion its the same really.



Films though...now thats a different kettle of fish (imo) Hell if I've paid $15 to see a film at the cinema, i feel i'm entitled to download it at a later date. :D

[BigFinger]

i disagree totally with the 'grey area'

unless you put your hand in your pocket for a copy of the game.... you stole it..... 'i cant pay therefore im entitled to play for free' is a juvenile argument......

the point i am making is that just because it appears to be a victimless crime doesn't make it any less a crime.....


.

[squerl]

Downloading good games and never buying them = not cool at all. I don't like the idea at all of downloading games, but I could understand people wanting to download to try it to see if it's worth buying. Problem is, most people download it, play it, &quot;hey sweet this game is awesome&quot;, and don't pay the money for it, which is bad. If you enjoy the game, the company deserves the revenue and profits. The more money the make, the more quickly and more likely they'll be able to make another game like it/as good.

Downloading multiplayer games is a whole different story, and shouldn't be done under any circumstance. Fortunately Steam is a great system to prevent a lot of this. I don't ever want to be playing with somebody who didn't pay the money I had to to have the same enjoyment.

[shieldshock]

You can use tricky talk all you want but this is the bottom line.

When a company makes a game, they have created the game. The information in that game is theirs to distribute in any way they like. Not the CDs or boxes containing the information. The actual information is theirs to do anything they want with.

If you get the game in an illegal way, you are denying the creators of the game the right to distribute it the way they want to. It does not matter what the purpose is. If a company makes a phenomenal must-have game and sells it for a ridiculous $1000, you cannot pirate the game on the grounds that 'it's way overpriced.' That decision is for the creators of the game to make. If that game is not worth it to you, then don't get it.

Quote:
Films though...now thats a different kettle of fish (imo) Hell if I've paid $15 to see a film at the cinema, i feel i'm entitled to download it at a later date. :D

You may 'feel' all tingly and decide you are 'entitled' to the film, but that decision in not yours to make. The creator of the film has the right to 'trade' it to you in any way he sees fit. If he doesn't want to make a fair trade, don't get the film.

Quote:
As for the stealing thing, well, bit of a grey area, as he didn't 'steal' the game off the manufacturer, he didn't steal the game from a games shop, he downloaded lots of little parts of the code from many different people. He's copied it, not stole it. This goes back to the 'tangible' argument, hence why the companies are not losing out any money.

When you buy a game from the games shop, you are paying for the game itself, not the CD and box. This argument is a bit of tricky talk to try to show that information is not property. It is.

Tricky talk never justifies the violation of a right. If you think it can you need to go think about what rights mean. You have a right to learn. You do not have a right to free education. You have a right to buy movies. You do not have a right to free movies. Anyone that believes education or free movies can be rights needs to go rethink what a right is.

[Teh Swat]

As for music, the second companies started using DRM, I outright will steal any of that companies music.

[Teknobry]

If you get the game in an illegal way, you are denying the creators of the game the right to distribute it the way they want to.

Incorrect, how is downloading the game infringing their ability to distribute the game?

<div class="quote"><div class="quoting">Quoting: shieldshock;]
Quote:
Films though...now thats a different kettle of fish (imo) Hell if I've paid $15 to see a film at the cinema, i feel i'm entitled to download it at a later date. :D

You may 'feel' all tingly and decide you are 'entitled' to the film, but that decision in not yours to make. The creator of the film has the right to 'trade' it to you in any way he sees fit. If he doesn't want to make a fair trade, don't get the film.[/QUOTE]

Basically, I paid good money to see the film at the cinema. Sometimes I feel like seeing it again in the future, so I'll download it. Yes it is wrong, I should buy the dvd, and if the film is good I will buy the dvd, but there are times when I don't think its worth buying the dvd as I won't watch it more than once.

I've never downloaded a film I didn't see at the cinema. Now, going back again to tangible goods... if i've already seen it once at the cinema and have no intention of buying the dvd, but I download it to watch one more time... is that hurting the industry? It may be illegal, but as for its impact on future development, it has no effect.

When you buy a game from the games shop, you are paying for the game itself, not the CD and box. This argument is a bit of tricky talk to try to show that information is not property. It is.

No, you're paying for the packaging, the advertising, the physical media that the games comes in, distribution costs...aka the complete package.

I don't understand your juvenile use of the term 'tricky talk' please explain.

[PewPew]

there are times when I don't think its worth buying the dvd as I won't watch it more than once.

Rent it?

[Teknobry]

Rent it?

I do actually, am a frequent visitor to blockbuster :D but, there have been many occasions where its not been possible to do that, such as me being in a place where there's been no vid shop, or its been late and its been closed, or not having transport to be able to get there, etc etc. (most of those occasions have been when I've been working away)

[shieldshock]

Quote:
Incorrect, how is downloading the game infringing their ability to distribute the game?

It is infringing on their right to distribute the game as they want to. They want people to acquire the game only by buying it from them.

Quote:
No, you're paying for the packaging, the advertising, the physical media that the games comes in, distribution costs...aka the complete package.
I don't understand your juvenile use of the term 'tricky talk' please explain.

Of course you pay a small amount for the physical part of the game, but that is only a small fraction of what you pay for.


Consider an example to see why your argument is so wrong.
There are millions of people in the U.S. that cannot afford to buy Windows or games. Since they cannot afford to buy them anyway, they should all get them for free.

SOFTWARE IS PROPERTY. IF YOU STEAL SOFTWARE YOU ARE STEALING
PROPERTY. PERIOD.

I won't be back as you are obviously a predisposed dirtbag that 'feels all tingly' about the right to steal software and as such are not arguing with.

[snarkeater]

Question: If you had an object copier, where you could take, say, an apple, put it into the copier, and out would come the exact same apple, and you put the first apple back, is that stealing?

[Teknobry]

It is infringing on their right to distribute the game as they want to. They want people to acquire the game only by buying it from them.

It has nothing to do with distribution whatsoever, I think you're getting your words mixed up. They can distribute the game via carrier pidgeon if they wish, torrenting won't affect that.

can[/b] afford to buy them getting it for free, not people who can't afford it in the first place.


<div class="quote"><div class="quoting">Quoting: shieldshock;]SOFTWARE IS PROPERTY. IF YOU STEAL SOFTWARE YOU ARE STEALING
PROPERTY. PERIOD.

TYPING IN CAPITALS DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.

Snarkeater makes a very good point.


I won't be back as you are obviously a predisposed dirtbag that 'feels all tingly' about the right to steal software and as such are not arguing with.

To be honest, you won't be missed. You cannot have a civil discussion without turning all offensive when you have no answer to the points I've made.

[globalenjoi]

Yep yep.. I know pirating is &quot;wrong&quot;, but I do it occasionally... And one area that I've found it most useful, is with e-books... College books are EXPENSIVE, and I've been able to find a few e-books for classes.

Also, renting things = stupid. You're better of downloading the game/movie, wrong or not. I won't ever go back to Blockbuster again, or any other renting service, because MULTIPLE times have I had to pay for a movie, because some idiot employee stole or lost it. Not putting my 7$ investment in some careless morons hands, nuh uh.

Snarkeater does make an excellent point.

I am kinda curious as to how many of these &quot;PIRATING IS BAD STOOPID AND YOU SHOULDNT DO IT!!&quot; guys have downloaded mp3's...

[BigFinger]

I am kinda curious as to how many of these &quot;PIRATING IS BAD STOOPID AND YOU SHOULDNT DO IT!!&quot; guys have downloaded mp3's...

try pandora... its an internet radio station, free and very good

http://www.pandora.com/

no need to download mp3's

.

[squerl]

^^ /agree with pandora being pretty cool

Question: If you had an object copier, where you could take, say, an apple, put it into the copier, and out would come the exact same apple, and you put the first apple back, is that stealing?

Comparing games to apples doesn't make for a good argument. To fix it, let's assume that the apple took a team of people several years and a few million dollars to create. They invested those millions of dollars and all of that time into the apple, making it very shiny and delicious knowing that they would have the exclusive rights to distribute it (thanks to LAWS), therefore making back their investment and hopefully some profit also (so they then have money to invest in another, even better apple).

Now, let's assume everybody takes your argument. Everybody uses a magic copy machine and gets to use the apple, but for FREE! What a wonderful world. The company makes no money back on their investment, closes, and now they're not making any more apples.

You're not robbing them of a physical product, you're robbing them of the revenue they deserve for their investment to make it.

The argument against this is, 'not everybody's doing it, and the company is still selling enough to break even/make a profit'. Yeah, because the law is there. If it wasn't ILLEGAL and you couldn't get in trouble for it, there'd be much easier ways of obtaining them for free and everybody would be doing it, and nobody would have a reason to make games anymore. It's illegal for a reason, and that's so at least the majority of people still buy games. Please don't use stupid arguments saying 'since they don't physically lose something, it's not a problem'. Capitalism relies on a working justice system, where creators and manufacturers have rights and protections.

[frogopus]

A squerl in his natural habitat

[snarkeater]

You're not robbing them of a physical product, you're robbing them of the revenue they deserve for their investment to make it.

So this apple making company (which from now on I will call &quot;Apple&quot; for convenience's sake) loses its revenue from everyone making free copies of apples.
Question: Is it stealing? How did Apple's apple get onto the copy machine's open source market anyways? Someone had to buy it. When this someone bought the apple, it then became his. When it became his, it was his to do with as he wished. Instead of keeping this apple for himself, he decided to let some of his friends copy it so they could try it as well. As thousands of people buy it, then they let other people copy their apples. Is this stealing, or giving? If it is stealing, and if stealing revenue, where was this to begin with? You cannot steal something that does not exist, whether physically or digitally.

[iRelentless]

You cannot steal something that does not exist, whether physically or digitally.
The loss of profits for the owners/creators is just a side effect. The illegality lies in breaking the legally binding license agreements which come up during installation of software, which you must to agree with to proceed. Or the compacted license around the edge of a console game disc which prevents any legal copying by saying something like &quot;FOR HOME USE ONLY. Unauthorised copying, adaption, rental, lending, distribution, extraction, re-sale, arcade use, charging for use, broadcast, public performance and internet, cable or any telecommunications transmission, access or use of this product or trademark, or copyright work that forms part of this product are prohibited.&quot; There's something similar on all commercial film/game/etc. discs and/or software installations.

The presence of all that means no-one can even attempt to call upon and warp their legal right to sell, give away or lend their game/film/software as a pro-piracy argument, because they don't have one. Even if they pirated a copy and then bought a legal copy, or even 10 legal copies, they still would have broken that agreement and be liable for all the legal ramifications that entails. If an apple were distributed with the same license, the same would apply.

[squerl]

I think you forgot to read my entire last paragraph.

To sum it up: Yes, you're using a product that is protected by the law without paying for it. You're stealing potential revenue. Your &quot;just borrowing&quot; it argument is severely flawed in that if everybody followed that logic, only one person would ever have to buy anything. No games would ever be made.

[D_Smid4499]

Jesus when someone pirates a game the company does not lose any money whatsoever, most games these days are just pure crap, half the games I pirate are in a dvd in a stack never ever to be touched again, they are not losing money if I'm not going to buy it anyways, everyone on 0Day agrees with me on this, they wouldn't have bought the game anyways so the company is not losing any money.

[Deadly]

my thoughts on it are, only do it if its an old game, or if you want a taste on wheather or not to buy the full game, for example (i didnt do this and am not going to) it isn't even tuesday yet but i can get halo 3 right now for free if i wanted to. i think that would be wrong though because the company is losing money and how will it be the largest release w/e if everyone downloads it for free, obviously it will be a good game so why bother &quot;testing&quot; it out.

again, i didnt do it, just an example

[Shrubberyjsc]

Well, in the end, Squerl's right.

Pirating is illegal.

But the best stuff in life is illegal, right?

=D


I kid, I kid.

=)

[Deadly]

I kid, I kid.

sure you do :D

[Shrubberyjsc]

sure you do :D

=O

[Deadly]

=O
>:\

[dontleave]

the dev's will be salaried and therefore the money is paid by the company to them every month before release. im guessing your still in school or know little of how companies work. or you would realise how silly your argument is.

if the company is not making money because its products are being pirated (stolen) then they don't pay the devs or bin the project completely...or worse still they churn into EA and mindlessly churn out sequels to established cash cows....

pirating is like those signs that say 'my little bit of litter wont hurt' against a backdrop of a messy street.... sure your ONE copy wont hurt but add it to the thousands that are there and youve got a massive problem and we end up with things like steam (a very good thing imho) and safedisk n secure rom (fucking terrible things).


remember people ask not what gaming can do for you but what you can do for gaming !!

Should I slap your forehead for you?

[tp500]

Do you guys realize how long this thread could go for!? ETERNITY! No one will ever win, people will keep pirating, and others wont. Thats just the world for ya. It's like every one of these replies are typed out by the same damn kid. Check their work over for like an hour for spelling and grammar so they don't look like a dumbass, and then use phrases like your argument is flawed, mmmmmmmmmmmmmyes. Go play a game!

[squerl]

Yes, using a phrase like &quot;your argument is flawed&quot; is something special.. I know people will keep pirating, and others won't, but trying to validate yourself pirating by saying it's not stealing/nobody is losing/it shouldn't be illegal is not correct.

[Tarron]

your not really pirating unless you sell it to someone else, if its for your own personal use then it's a moral decision. and with risk. i take the occasional risk :) but i don't see the overall effect of it, and nobody gets hurt, so it doesn't effect me morally.

[tp500]

squerl, im just wondering when people are gonna stop posting no here lol. The same points have been said by different people, its just boring to read! People were comparing software to apples for god's sake!

[Tarron]

royal gala or granny smith?

[tp500]

haha, I love all apples!

[D_Smid4499]

Jesus what the fuck are you guys Greenpeace? Grow the fuck up everyone steals, who gives a shit about the companies they'll get there big fat fucking billion dollar paychecks anyways, stop fucking arguing about this fucking subject, the companies deserve to have their games stolen for fucking 69.99.




Nigga plz.

[squerl]

Jesus what the fuck are you guys Greenpeace? Grow the fuck up everyone steals, who gives a shit about the companies they'll get there big fat fucking billion dollar paychecks anyways, stop fucking arguing about this fucking subject, the companies deserve to have their games stolen for fucking 69.99.

When you get a job one day, you might &quot;give a shit about the companies&quot;. Maybe I'll grow up one day and realize everybody steals, so it's not so bad.

[darksora2323]

Jesus what the fuck are you guys Greenpeace? Grow the fuck up everyone steals, who gives a shit about the companies they'll get there big fat fucking billion dollar paychecks anyways, stop fucking arguing about this fucking subject, the companies deserve to have their games stolen for fucking 69.99.

omg can we just ban this dumbass now?

[dontleave]

Im pretty sure D_cover lives in some ghetto where he has to fend for himself. It's alright for him to think like that. His only flaw is that he found and learned how to operate a PC.

[darksora2323]

D_cover
D_Smid4499

[dontleave]

D_Smid4499

Same thing really...

[Deek]

Im pretty sure D_cover lives in some ghetto where he has to fend for himself.
... a ghetto with an internet cafe ...

[The One]

Look its illegal period.

But remember kids

&quot;Its not illegal if you dont get caught.&quot;

[D_Smid4499]

Same thing really...
Lawl can someone please check my IP (admin), I don't know D_Cover but you guys hate him.

omg can we just ban this dumbass now?
Lawl

When you get a job one day, you might &quot;give a shit about the companies&quot;. Maybe I'll grow up one day and realize everybody steals, so it's not so bad.
It's funny how people always think they're older to the person they're arguing with.

&quot;Its not illegal if you dont get caught.&quot;
Not true

[D_Smid4499]

Can someone please send me a link to a thread that made D_Cover hate you all, I'm to lazy.

[The One]

omg can we just ban this dumbass now?
I second that

[D_Smid4499]

Quoting: darksora2323
omg can we just ban this dumbass now?

I second that


I third that