WHY VALVe can't churn out a new campaign so quickly

[geel9]

I am making a map called "Highway". Watch this video of me making it:

http://www.wegame.com/watch/Making_a_map_in_L4D/

It's super sped up, and it took me about an hour. I had NO design documents, no HUGE meetings, I didn't have to make custom textures and models, I didn't have to code in a ton of stuff and all the other crap.

THAT is why they can't do it so quickly.

[darkmessiah]

What's the saying... dunno... Quality Over Quantity?

You're missing new sounds, voice acting, and even original textures...

Also realize that Valve is not always making maps, and probably are busy with other shit.

Good observation!

[Hon3r]

The video was loading really slowly for me, but I get the idea.
I used to try to make HL maps with Worldcraft 3 (old version of Hammer) and it took SO much time. There's a lot more to making maps than most people think!

I just want the SDK :(

[Platypus]

Yeah, once you have a layout, you have to go into hammer, then worry about entity work, then when your done (this step is what most people don't know about l4d mapping) you have to load it in game and go and make the nav_mesh for your map allowing the bots to move and telling infected where to spawn. Then you have to release it and possibly change major layouts of the map if there are bugs, ect ect.

[Kiwi]

I think what he's trying to say is because of the fact that Valve has meetings, makes custom props and what not is the reason they can't makes maps fast?
The topic in itself confused me. :P

Non-the-less nice work?

[deathspeak78]

3 words...

Leak, leak, leak....

[Hon3r]

3 words...

Leak, leak, leak....

Ugh. That about sums up my attempts at making HL maps.
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK

make it stop!

[Cyanyde]

So release your map then..
At the rate you're apparently going, it should be done by now..

[Dead Fish]

So release your map then..
At the rate you're apparently going, it should be done by now..

And have the same quality as a Valve map or how does this argument make any sense?

[mega808]

hmm? i think i wouldn't mind if there were more quality custom maps. Valve can take their time with making maps. Not that it matters now since none of their official maps connect into a storyline...

[yourbadmega]

i don't get the point of this

[Damen]

Well for a lot of reasons. Your "map" was a simple line. It had no levels to it. Plus the sky and whole environment would have to be conceptualized and designed. Valve's official maps have a story to them also.

They don't simple take a long time to release maps because they like making people like you wait. It isn't like they waste their time. They want it all done just as fast as you but since these are proffesionals, unlike you, they take their time to get things done right.

All of those models you used had to be made before they were just "popped" into the game. So take a few months to make some more of those too will you?

*DON'T INSULT OTHER MEMBERS*

[Deadly]

Well for a lot of reasons. Your "map" was a simple line. It had no levels to it. Plus the sky and whole environment would have to be conceptualized and designed. Valve's official maps have a story to them also.

They don't simple take a long time to release maps because they like making people like you wait. It isn't like they waste their time. They want it all done just as fast as you but since these are proffesionals, unlike you, they take their time to get things done right.

All of those models you used had to be made before they were just "popped" into the game. So take a few months to make some more of those too will you?



I think you are missing the point of what he is trying to say. Not that he can make a couple of cars in one hour but that he could only make a couple of cars in one hour. Which is why people need to stop nagging about taking so long to release a new campaign.

Of course I could be totally wrong and the right answer is in fact the opposite but I'm pretty sure he is telling people to be patient rather then nag, nag, nag.

[Damen]

I think you are missing the point of what he is trying to say. Not that he can make a couple of cars in one hour but that he could only make a couple of cars in one hour. Which is why people need to stop nagging about taking so long to release a new campaign.

Of course I could be totally wrong and the right answer is in fact the opposite but I'm pretty sure he is telling people to be patient rather then nag, nag, nag.
Well if you are right then we are on the same page. However a better title the thread would've been good.

[lawlhat]

I freely admit I am too impatient to make decent maps in any map editor, even Hammer.

[Frito]

Well if you are right then we are on the same page. However a better title the thread would've been good.

The title made sense to me. Unless you read it as Why can't Valve...


I've never picked up mapping, but I've heard it's very, very complex. Besides, they have a whole lot more to do than placing premade props.

[Dead Fish]

I think you are missing the point of what he is trying to say. Not that he can make a couple of cars in one hour but that he could only make a couple of cars in one hour. Which is why people need to stop nagging about taking so long to release a new campaign.

Of course I could be totally wrong and the right answer is in fact the opposite but I'm pretty sure he is telling people to be patient rather then nag, nag, nag.

Ah, now I get it. ^^ So... yeah, in that case I agree, making a good map is quite an involved process.

[geel9]

Well for a lot of reasons. Your "map" was a simple line. It had no levels to it. Plus the sky and whole environment would have to be conceptualized and designed. Valve's official maps have a story to them also.

They don't simple take a long time to release maps because they like making people like you wait. It isn't like they waste their time. They want it all done just as fast as you but since these are proffesionals, unlike you, they take their time to get things done right.

All of those models you used had to be made before they were just "popped" into the game. So take a few months to make some more of those too will you?

*DON'T INSULT OTHER MEMBERS*

I think you thought I was one of those people that doesn't know the concept of grammar and sentence structure.

I'm on YOUR side! :P

[twitchy]

THAT is why they can't do it so quickly.


You guys missed his point.

[GamerKing]

I could never work out how to load textures into Hammer, I blame god.

[Doctor Whom]

I wouldn't even know how to begin making a map in the editor. I suppose I could do it with a kit of pre-made parts in an environment like Google Sketchup, but anything more complex than that would stagger me. I freely admit this. What I think I could do is imagine a good level or two and work with a team as a concept-type-guy... I'd love to do that.

[MindStalker]

3 words...

Leak, leak, leak....

Leaks are relatively simple to fix. Create a large hollow box that surrounds everything, there will be no more leaks.
DO NOT RESIZE THIS BOX EVER.
If you attempt to resize the surrounding box you will get leaks, instead if you need to resize, delete and recreate. This is generally true of any other hollow box, don't resize them, delete and recreate.

[Blackhawk]

You are slow.
And valve makes them faster than you because they model atleast most of the buildings they make on the maps. You didn't model anything and the reason it took so long that valve gave us the new versus maps was that they were making something else too than just the maps.

[Hon3r]

Leaks are relatively simple to fix. Create a large hollow box that surrounds everything, there will be no more leaks.
DO NOT RESIZE THIS BOX EVER.
If you attempt to resize the surrounding box you will get leaks, instead if you need to resize, delete and recreate. This is generally true of any other hollow box, don't resize them, delete and recreate.

I would try putting the entire level inside one giant box, but I still got leaks. Maybe because I resized?

I wonder why resizing it makes such a difference?

[geel9]

You are slow.
And valve makes them faster than you because they model atleast most of the buildings they make on the maps. You didn't model anything and the reason it took so long that valve gave us the new versus maps was that they were making something else too than just the maps.

You just defeated yourself. It takes them a LONG TIME to go into a long meeting about a model, make the model, rinse and repeat 5 times, go into a long meeting about a texture, make the texture, rinse and repeat 100 times.

Owned.

[Shrubberyjsc]

Hey, I'm noticing that people seem to like to mouth off in this thread.

Let's not do that.

I don't care if you can or cannot make a map faster than Valve, don't be a dick to other forum users.

[Dead Fish]

This reminds me of an old interview given by Mike Booth and Chris Ashton (of Turtle Rock Studios, the original creator of Left 4 Dead when they were still independent, now part of Valve):

http://www.interlopers.net/articles/turtle-rock-studios-interview

They give some very interesting insight into how maps are made by professionals. They have dedicated people working on models, textures, etc. and assign them whatever is needed along the way. Valve is much bigger of course, so their methods could be different.

[Hazard24]

They're slow because they are also working on Team Fortress 2 updates, Portal 2(http://www.kombo.com/article.php?artid=11223), Half-Life 2 Episode 3, probably Half-life 3 engine since engines take many months/years to make, and maybe a game that has not been announced yet. And they're always releasing patches for their games and that takes up time also.

[gehn6]

It isn't being slow really. It's making sure its good before the release, but sometimes still needing fixes. :P

In community mapping you make a quick draft with textures and what not and release. Then the community tells you what they think, what should change, etc. You (if you are a nice mapper and support your fans) then go back and make changes, work on it more, release a new version. Feedback. Updated map. Feedback. Updated map.

Well professionals do all that BEFORE a public release. Granted there will be some bugs or errors that were not caught, but it is a hell of a lot more polished than a lot of community maps are when released. Professionals also of course make their own models/textures/etc. They of course also go through the process of create/peer review/modify/peer review/etc.

Not mention, this isn't just one map for a campaign, it's 5 maps total.

I'm sure they have different teams for the different games though.

Why is this thread still open? It's a pretty silly topic to begin with since we don't know for sure the answer. Even I am just talking out of my ass.

[Deadly]

Let's clear this up right now. Geel9, did you make this video/thread to prove that you can make maps faster then Valve, or to prove a point as to why Valve cannot make a map quickly?

[Chr0n1c]

Coming from someone who tests software for a living, a very substantial portion of the time (maybe even the majority of time) that is spent during the software development lifecycle, for a company such as Value, is spent performing Quality control and Quality Assurance initiatives. From my overall experience I can say that there is a huge difference between quickly coding/building something vs making SURE it works exactly how it is intended.

Q: Why can't Valve churn out new Campaigns quickly?
A: Because they have to TEST it!

Not to undermine your efforts - what you have done there is rather impressive in its own right, but that video is basically a pipe-dream stage of what a finished campaign would look like, let alone the constraints of acceptable gameplay.

[Deadly]

"Q: Why can't Valve churn out new Campaigns quickly?"

The title of this topic is Why Valve can't churn out a new campaign so quickly, it is not a question as so many people are interpreting it to be

[Chr0n1c]

Thanks for the clarification but I have no confusion concerning this thread. The title of the thread is in itself an answer to the question that I proposed - Why CAN'T Valve make maps quickly? The assumption, of course, being that many others (perhaps in other threads) have asked this exact question. My interpretation of the author's purpose of this thread was to point out the difficulties of map-making, and therefore to illustrate why Valve can't make a new campaign very quickly.

My point was to expand on the author's reasoning further (as to why Valve can't make maps quickly) by informing the public that even AFTER a map is developed, a huge chunk of time is spent testing it, before any of us would ever hear a rumor of its existence.

[geel9]

This is not a question! I am simply stating that all those who want a new campaign so quickly don't understand the time it takes

gah

[Hon3r]

I understood completely.

I think Chonic is just trying to say that it's not the building of a level that takes so much time, but the testing.

[Chr0n1c]

Look. The title of this thread serves as an answer to an implied question. You stated yourself that many people don't understand the time it takes to make a map, hence the question one of those people would have is "Why can't Valve make campaigns quicker?" And therefore, this thread is a response to that question.

Either way, our discussion about language symantics is veering dangerously towards being off-topic.

[Mattbott]

yes, it is a long involved process requiring imagination, patience, testing and a lot of re thinking.

otherwise we would all be able to do it

[geel9]

yes, it is a long involved process requiring imagination, patience, testing and a lot of re thinking.

otherwise we would all be able to do it

Correct. Would you like your intarnets via FadExp or ISPS?