Different maps, different weapons?

[Pain]

I was thinking...

Will there be the exact same weapons in every map/campaign out there OR... will the weapon arsenal differ somewhat from map to map?

What do you prefer and why? :)

[Jim_Riley]

Well, we know for a fact that weapons won't differ...so no they won't.

When you think about it, all the weapons are quite versatile. That is, you can imagine them in almost any situation. i.e The M16 is wherever the military is, so would the auto shotgun. The pump shotgun fits quite well with the farming setting and so does the molotov and pipebomb...

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

srry to say this but : who cares??
its shooting zombies i dont care whit what weapon i do it!! as long they ly dead on the grond its a good weapon for eddy standards...

[Pain]

Well, we know for a fact that weapons won't differ...so no they won't.

When you think about it, all the weapons are quite versatile. That is, you can imagine them in almost any situation. i.e The M16 is wherever the military is, so would the auto shotgun. The pump shotgun fits quite well with the farming setting and so does the molotov and pipebomb...


Yeah I guess..

Still, would be fun and interesting to have different weapons for different maps.

In my opinion, it seems kinda boring when the maps / weapon arsenal looks like:

Hospital map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Cornfield map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Some other map:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb



....... is it just me or does this now start to look boring???

See, this is what I'm afraid of, that all campaigns with all their maps inside will look like this, the same weapons in each and every map... that would suck


However, this is just a small example that I now gonna show you, but still, it shows clearly what I'm suggesting:

Hospital map:

M16

M4 Super 90

Mini-14

Pump action shotguns

UZI SMG

1911 Pistol

Molotov cocktail

Pipebomb



Cornfield map:

Two-barrelled shotgun (side by side)

Desert Eagle pistol, 10-Inch Barrel (Yes, Desert Eagles are mostly used by hunters out in the country-side as a secondary weapon (or even as the primary weapon sometimes), which is why this gun is perfect for this map. and I KNOW that many of you people would like to see the Desert Eagle in this game so don't complain! ;) :P)

Semi automatic shotgun

Lever action rifle

Single shot rifle

Molotov cocktail (not the same as in Hospital map. this time it's bottles of moonshine, yeah! :P)

Propane tank bombs

[frogopus]

I think we're also trying to avoid a situation like Counter Strike, where theres a very large number of weapons to choose from but only a handful worth using. The developers chose a small number of weapons as a very conscious design decision.

Besides, every shooter that I've played involves the same set of weapons throughout the game (including any Source game), so that hardly strikes me as boring. It's standard.

[Puscifer]

I think we're also trying to avoid a situation like Counter Strike, where theres a very large number of weapons to choose from but only a handful worth using. The developers chose a small number of weapons as a very conscious design decision.

Besides, every shooter that I've played involves the same set of weapons throughout the game (including any Source game), so that hardly strikes me as boring. It's standard.


Exactlly

The only weapons i use in CSS are:

Knife

USP

GLOCK

M4 A1

AK 47

SCOUT (favourite)

so tbh the fact that they have the weapons they do is one of the reasons this game is going to be perfect:P

and the skins for them are the best i have ever seen in a game, theres like an overall style they've gone for, not just mix n match:)

[Pain]

I don't know how you are thinking but, I think you've got it wrong.... :/ *scratches my noodle*

You see, it's actually the current weapon outload that will turn into CS, not the idea that I'm suggesting.

I mean, how ever would my suggestion where I clearly state that there will be different weapons for different maps EVER gonna turn into CS??? :/


It's actually the current weapon outload that will turn out like CS, where we have the:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb

..in each and every map

not to mention that it is said the Devs will add MORE weapons later on to that list!

so yeah.. I can safely say that pretty soon it will turn out like CS. each and every map has THE SAME weapons in it, where players only pick a few that they will use, and the rest of the weapons just sits there, collecting dust.... :/

[basic]

every game ive ever played has the same weapons on every map.. its a game ffs not real life...

you're just stretching yourself to make problems with this game... if you want the game to be this ultimate game you keep describing then make it yourself

not trying to be rude just saying that you're "issues" with this game are pretty absurd and far-fetched...

[Pain]

so that hardly strikes me as boring. It's standard.

but to others, standard IS boring..! :P

Plus, last time I checked, Turtle Rock Studios didn't try to make Left 4 Dead just a "standard" game.. ;)

[Puscifer]

Different weapons for each campaign is just a silly idea tbh, give me a "Hunting Rifle" and there will be smokers, boomers, and hunters lieing dead all over the place:P

[The One]

Ok different weapons for different maps right?

Ok

Cornfield:

M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


Hospital:

Two-barrelled shotgun (side by side)

Desert Eagle pistol, 10-Inch Barrel (Yes, Desert Eagles are mostly used by hunters out in the country-side as a secondary weapon (or even as the primary weapon sometimes), which is why this gun is perfect for this map. and I KNOW that many of you people would like to see the Desert Eagle in this game so don't complain! ;) :P)

Semi automatic shotgun

Lever action rifle

Single shot rifle

Molotov cocktail (not the same as in Hospital map. this time it's bottles of moonshine, yeah! :P)

Propane tank bombs



ok "Hey I'm bored, lets go play the cornfield map again"

Cornfield:
M16
M4 Super 90
Mini-14
Pump action shotguns
UZI SMG
1911 Pistol
Molotov cocktail
Pipebomb


ok "I'm bored again lets go back to hospital"

Hospital:
Two-barrelled shotgun (side by side)

Desert Eagle pistol, 10-Inch Barrel (Yes, Desert Eagles are mostly used by hunters out in the country-side as a secondary weapon (or even as the primary weapon sometimes), which is why this gun is perfect for this map. and I KNOW that many of you people would like to see the Desert Eagle in this game so don't complain! ;) :P)

Semi automatic shotgun

Lever action rifle

Single shot rifle

Molotov cocktail (not the same as in Hospital map. this time it's bottles of moonshine, yeah! :P)

Propane tank bombs




See what I'm saying? Even if they put "Different" weapons for each map, every time you play that map it'll have the same weapons. So it would be considered "Standard" which "Standard" to you is boring. So the whole game would bore you now wouldnt it?

Besides the weapons the chose are great. And every game is going to have its own set of weapons. Its not real life.

[Pain]

what does "tbh" mean...? :(

(sorry, I live in sweden and english isn't my primary language)

[Dead Fish]

what does "tbh" mean...? :(

"to be honest"

This whole threads suggestion doesn't make too much sense imho tbh btw. ;) Why would somebody want the weapons in this game to be restricted to certain campaigns? Every game has it's standard, most proven loadout, sure... But that's where L4D does the job right, from the beginning.

And as soon as you find a pile of tier 2 weapons (Hunting/Aussault Rifle and the Auto Shotty) you are -supposed- to leave the old ones behind. And as the game looks right now a team of 4 people carrying -only- shotguns or -only- Uzis won't be very effective in every situation. It should be well balanced at release and I trust TRS to introduce only such weapons that won't render the others useless; especially since they've got Valves support. Those people know how to balance a game ;)

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

AK 47
!!! that is a must in L4D

[asu]

Restricting certain weapons to certain campaigns / maps can cause a "de_dust2 - effect". By that I mean that people will sooner or later play only this or that map because they can get their favorite gun only there.
Picture a fantastic game with dozens of maps but every server you join plays only one of them because people say "It has the M16...omgwtfbbq!"

Also, if you die and spawn in a locker your weapons will be gone and you have to pick whatever gun you can get (which, at some points of the map / campaign are restricted to tier 1 weapons).

[dontleave]

Fuck, an AK in L4D would SUCK.

Here's why: THE AK SUCKS.

JK, the M16 functions not at all like an M16, what would be the benefit of having the AK47, unless you want to make it like a fucking .2 hit kill gun. If the guns arent at all realistic then there's really no point in diversifying them. The AK is too damn common in games anyway.

Get like the AK74U and a nice carbine, with a silencer, to sneak around with.

[Pain]

ah! tbh = to be honest :)


I see what you mean there The One and Diabolic Forelle, and that's a very good point you got there, a point that I can't argue with :P

but yes, anyways, I want to say I give up, you guys win! ^^

I mean, I was just asking the community a simple question with a hint of suggestion to the devs, that's all :)

but some people seem to get aggressive about it, giving me bad vibes :S

accusing me for having "issues" with the game, and thinking that I dislike the game or something, that I'm trying to change it. That's not true. you guys really need to read carefully and not jump the gun on this kind of things

I never said that I found this game to be boring, if you read carefully you can see I used the words "seems kinda boring"

seeeeems.....

or "it looks boring"

looooooks.....

it's not the same thing as "IS" boring... :P

and again, I mentioned "some people find standard = boring"

I used the words "some people", never did I say "I" find standard games boring... :P


And yeah, so I'm just throwing out some suggestion out there, that's all, no need to get all offensive about it.. :)

[frogopus]

And yeah, so I'm just throwing out some suggestion out there, that's all, no need to get all offensive about it.. :)
Disagreeing isnt taking offense :P

Merriam webster fails to define "outload" so I'm a little confused there but I think I get what youre saying.

I brought up CSS because I was explaining the choice to use only a few weapons in the game, which was a comparison used in a conversation with the dev team.

My direct response to DIFFERENT weapons per map was what followed.

I'm not trying to agree or disagree that different weapons per map would be interesting, I'm trying to explain the rationalization of the development team and why the weapon scheme is how it is now.

[PoisonousPizza]

I figure CS owns a huge arsenal since action is based on gunfighting (shooters finding 32 different ways to fill shooters with lead). But when you face a pack of zombies killing with bare hands, there isn't any rock-paper-scissors with firearms. If L4D ends up with as many boomsticks as CS, that's fine. But going beyond what they've already got might be overkill.

[Puscifer]

!!! that is a must in L4D

it is, the only 2 guns i would like added are an AK 47 and an MP5:P

then the game would be even perfecter lol:P

[Pain]

hehe, what is it about you guys and AK-47's..? :P

that weapon is like 40 years old. there are newer and better AK models out there, you know.. ;)

like the AK-107 and the AK-108, those two models are the latest and probably the best, why don't you try them out instead? ;)

[PoisonousPizza]

then the game would be even perfecter lol:P



lol

[dontleave]

like the AK-107 and the AK-108, those two models are the latest and probably the best, why don't you try them out instead? ;)

Even the AK101 series is better... It even LOOKS more urban-y.

Personally, I wouldn't go with shit weapons that aren't even used by the country. Sure, argue that gangsters use AK47's, still don't give a crap. M4A1's and a normal M16, MP5, M9... I'd be fine with those, and even a double barrel sawed off in the cornfield map.

Truth is, AK47 is bulky and much less reliable than a modern counter part, anyone with a right mind would scrap it for a lighter, easier to use M4. Not like Infected wear body armor anyway, and snipe you 500 yards away.

Overall though, I don't give a crap... the guns dont perform realistically, theres already a pistol, submachine gun, rifle and sniper section.. the only missing is the LMG... different skins doesnt really concern me, leave it to the community. I dont see how adding in a less accurate although more powerful rifle would do any good, especially since infected die in 1-2 hits already.

Only weapon missing is the M249, which is I think is mounted in the finale section of the campaign. And a bat of some sort.

[Pain]

Only weapon missing is the M249, which is I think is mounted in the finale section of the campaign.

Yeah, and for some strange reason is never used either.. :/ or at least, not in any videos that I've seen

I've seen plenty of different videos showing players running past it back and forth several times, even standing still next to it, still no-one uses it. I have to admit, that was very disappointing to see... :(

But I read that they've mounted the m249 in a fixed position or angel of some sort, so maybe that's why no one uses it, it's simple not effective enough to be used..??

[Nemesis_vs_Leon]

so tbh the fact that they have the weapons they do is one of the reasons this game is going to be perfect:P

and the skins for them are the best i have ever seen in a game, theres like an overall style they've gone for, not just mix n match:)
most developers are doing this now. In UT3 they don't have any extra modes like they did in ut2004. Instead, they just combined it all into Warfare mode with some ctf and deathmatch on the side. Warfare is awesome, but my computer crashes whenever I run it...

Anyway, it's simply more economic and time-saving to put in only what you need and leave out the rest. The M16 epitomizes the generic and optimal assault rifle anyway.

is never used either.. :/
the m249 is used for a heroic and fun ending. As you fly or drive away from the horde, you mow them down with the m249(s). Also, isn't there one on the hospital roof? You can actually use that one throughout the finale.

Also, those people who completely ignore the m249 are probably just newbies who don't know that the action button even exists. Just random people who go to these big game events. The few videos we've seen just happened to show them playing instead of actual gamers. Although, I'm sure Shrub and E started using it...

[Puscifer]

hehe, what is it about you guys and AK-47's..? :P

that weapon is like 40 years old. there are newer and better AK models out there, you know.. ;)

like the AK-107 and the AK-108, those two models are the latest and probably the best, why don't you try them out instead? ;)


i agree there are better AK's available, but im thinking about the weapons in the game at the moment and what would fit with them...

think about it, we have an M16 rifle, hmm what would go perfectly along side that i wonder???

this would http://www.ak-47.us/Pic/AR-15/AR15vsAK47-002.jpg

[frogopus]

The finales have a mounted MG to hold off the swarm. There hasn't been a lot of footage of it but you will always have one guy using it when the finale kicks off. But yah it has a limited turn radius.

[hooray for zombies]

I seem to remember there being mounted gun footage in shrubs video, showing that it now overheats if used for extended periods of time.

And what is it with the whole AK-47 fetish anyways?

[Pain]

Alright. I'm gonna try this one more time, this will be my last crack at it and then I'm done. And this time I'll will even criticise my own suggestion just to put it to test! (heh, sounds crazy doesn't it? :P)

No but really. I'm gonna try this one last time, and I will look on my own suggestion with a different set of eyes and with a different type of mind. we'll see how that goes... :P


Ok.

So both the Devs and a large group of people (including me) are standing on the same page when it comes to having a large variety of weapons, but only having a few of those guns used, while the others just sits there and collects dust. Because we all agree on that's not something we want to see in this game, we all identify that as something Bad and we want something to be done about it.

But when it comes to creating a solution for this problem, then that's where we go our separate ways.

The devs idea and current system is like this: The game will only have a dozen of weapons that you can use in every campaign, no matter what map you're playing.

Pro's:
• Eliminates the problem of having a variety of weapons but only having a small portion of them actually being used.
• The weapons are also pretty much balanced and carefully selected to fit anyones taste of weaponry and action-hero style. We got one pistol with the ability to dual weld, one submachine gun, one assault rifle, one sniper rifle, and two types of shotguns.

All this to eliminate unnecessary weaponry and to make sure that no gun is more preferred than the other.

Con's:
• As mentioned, there will only be a dozen types of weapons, perhaps not even that. This can also be seen as something negative. People might get bored of the weapons, they might wanna have more weapons then just one pistol, one submachine gun, one assault rifle and only one sniper rifle.
• Also, having them so balanced can also backfire on you and turn into something negative. Because, it doesn't really matter what weapon you use, it's still no better than the rest. Kinda like having a Ferrari, a Lamborghini, a Volkswagen and a KIA, and they still really are the same car. How fun is that?



The different idea that I went with looked like this: The game would have a large variety of weapons, but not all would be available to use in a single map. There would be different weapons depending on what map you are playing.

Pro's:
• Eliminates the problem of having a variety of weapons but only having a small portion of them actually being used.
• It does not resort to only adding a small variety of weapons to the game. Quite the contrary, it adds a very large amount of weapon to the game while still being a solution to the weapon-problem in question.
• And having a large verity of different weapons means that most likely more people will be satisfied and creates less chance of boredom. (I'm already hearing a lot of demands on some weapons that many people would like to see in this game but probably wont, because of the direction that Turtle Rock Studio is currently taking.)
• Not to mention that this also gives a somewhat sense of realism, seeing as the different weapons you'll be given will depend on the map and its area and surrounding. Not that realism means anything for most of the people in this kind of a game, but still, it should at least make some folks out there quite happy :)

Con's:
• There is still risk for not satisfying all the people. Folks might want to play with a specific weapon in a specific map, which just isn't available.
• Not to mention that this can lead to creating a specific set of maps players only go to, just because they find the weapons better in those maps than in the other ones. (Although this can be solved, it's just a matter of balance really.

Example:
Map A has weapons that are more desired by the players than Map B. But Map B is a far more better map then Map A.)



And that's about it...

That's what I found and came up with when trying to look at it from as many point of views as possible. And to be honest... I think my idea came out as the winner... :s just seems like my idea had more pro's and lesser con's than the devs approach, or did I miss something? :s

But anyways, that really doesn't matter. Because I said it before and I'm saying it again – This Is Just Suggestions. You don't have to like them or agree with me, that's fine with me. I respect that.

Because, either way, I'm still gonna buy this game and probably, most likely, like and enjoy it anyways! It doesn't matter to me how Turtle Rock Studios makes this game. Because in the end, you can't forget that we both strive for the same goal here, and it doesn't really matter what road you take and how you do it, just as long as you get there. And weird but sadly enough... it seems like I'm the only one here who feels that way...

[hooray for zombies]

• As mentioned, there will only be a dozen types of weapons, perhaps not even that. This can also be seen as something negative. People might get bored of the weapons, they might wanna have more weapons then just one pistol, one submachine gun, one assault rifle and only one sniper rifle.
• Also, having them so balanced can also backfire on you and turn into something negative. Because, it doesn't really matter what weapon you use, it's still no better than the rest. Kinda like having a Ferrari, a Lamborghini, a Volkswagen and a KIA, and they still really are the same car. How fun is that?


1. The game is not focused on the weaponry, it is focused on the killing of zombies and the great spawning/AI sstem behind them. And that's what the infected bosses are for, to make sure that when you get tired of playing survivor, you have an alternative.
2. Balanced doesn't mean the same, it just means equally effective. The weapons are capable of causing the same amount of damage, but in completely different ways (meaning the weapon will suit your playstyle and the situation at hand)

And weird but sadly enough... it seems like I'm the only one here who feels that way...
unnecesary

[frogopus]

Good post. I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people aren't bored using the same weapon. For example, me personally... I've never really cared about what gun I'm using. In more futuristic settings I love seeing different kinds of lasers and shrink rays and what have you but in a realistic game (gun wise) bullet spreads and the like just dont do it for me. Right now theres a type of gun that fits a certain role but you dont get into the nitty gritty details.

So making different weapons for each scenario wouldn't have any benefit for me... I'm going to know what basic role my gun fits into and play it. What I do see is me feeling like a certain version of that role on one map may not blast zombie heads quite like another version in a different map. Thats going to really have an affect on my outlook of that campaign.

In other words, you see a problem and would like to see a resolution while I see no problem and worry that a resolution would affect my enjoyment.


And weird but sadly enough... it seems like I'm the only one here who feels that way...
Because I said it before and I'm saying it again – This Is Just Suggestions. You don't have to like them or agree with me, that's fine with me. I respect that.

Don't think we're not listening or understanding... and most of us here don't mean for it to be personal. We like topics with new ideas to bash back and forth in our wait for the bloody game.

[Rannos]

Regarding the AK vs M16 debate, a brief quote from the zombie survival guide (just picked it up and found this bit interesting,):

"The U.S. Army M16A1 is considered by many to be the worst assault rifle ever invented. Its overcomplicated mechanism both difficult to clean and prone to jamming. Adjusting the sight, something that must be done every time a target shifts its range, requires the use of a nail, ballpoint pen or similar device. [...] The delicate plastic stock of the M16A1 obviates bayonet use, and by attempting to use it as such you would risk shattering the hallow, spring-loaded stock. [...] So poor was its early battle record that during the Vietnam War, communist guerrillas refused to take them from dead Americans. [...]
On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Soviet AK-47 is considered the best assault rifle ever made. Although heavier than the M16 (10.58 pounds versus 7 pounds) and possessing a considerably harder kick, this weapon is famous for its rugged efficiency and sturdy construction. Its wide, spacious firing mechanism presents jamming from dirt or sand. In hand-to-hand combat, your would either stab a zombie through the eye socket with the weapon's bayonet or use the solid, steel-backed wooden stock to smash through a zombie's skull. [...]"

Omitted are parts considered unnecessary to the debate (mostly parts involving Max Brook's shambling undead.) I'm rather impartial myself between AKs and M16's, preferring both to be ingame filling different roles. However, Mr. Brooks seemed to have done quite a bit of research on the topic and I thought his opinion might be useful.

As for the "different weapons on different maps" idea. I think I'd prefer the same weapons on all maps. Keeps maps from becoming more "de_dust" like than they are already bound to be. Plus original DoD did something like this with having the british army in some maps. I found myself prefering and seeking out those maps more because I liked the enfield a lot more than the kar 98.

[PoisonousPizza]

So far it seems L4D is taking the American setting, so I can understand if the weapons are just domestic. Guess we'll end up salvaging whatever the U.S. military used when the epidemic begins. 0o0o0o0o

Maybe a second release would focus on Europe for a change. Then we could see more of the Kalashnikov.

[The One]

How about this, any gun that can penetrate through the infected is good. Hell even a musket would be good. As long as it kills. I highly doubt that in an apocalyptic world where a bunch of crazy hell bent bastards from hell are chasing you, your gonna worry whether you have an ak or an M16. As long as you can kill them, anything is good.

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

THE AK SUCKS.
LOOOOL you dont know shit about the AK..... noob

[The One]

Quoting: dontleave
THE AK SUCKS.

LOOOOL you dont know shit about the AK..... noob

The AK doesnt suck, but its just boring. Its in every damn game. I'm actually happy that for once they didnt put the AK in this game.

[Gforcemember45]

"The U.S. Army M16A1 is considered by many to be the worst assault rifle ever invented. Its overcomplicated mechanism both difficult to clean and prone to jamming. Adjusting the sight, something that must be done every time a target shifts its range, requires the use of a nail, ballpoint pen or similar device. [...] The delicate plastic stock of the M16A1 obviates bayonet use, and by attempting to use it as such you would risk shattering the hallow, spring-loaded stock. [...] So poor was its early battle record that during the Vietnam War, communist guerrillas refused to take them from dead Americans. [...]

I dint know if you know, Rannos, but the military has been upgrading the M16 for quite awhile since vietnam. It is now considered the most acurate rifle next to our modern sniper rilfe. So your zombie guide falls a bit short now.