Will this be a budget game?

[Conscriptt]

I'm really looking forward to L4D, this seems like one awesome game and seems like only mature players would be playing it since it requires strategy, which requires thinking... But my only concern is, is this game going to be full price (50 for comp/60 for 360)? I can't see myself buying this if it full price because... well.. flame me if you will it just doesn't seem like a full-featured game. 4 scenarios, like 5 guns, and made on the source engine??? I find the source engine to be quite outdated... So if anyone has any info on this I'd be glad to hear it. I also wouldn't want bullshit wear it's released for $30 on PC but then $60 on 360, since I'm buying it for 360... but still, primitive graphics and low in features is a turn off, I see it as a well thought-out mod more than a game.

[Esgar]

4 scenarios and 5 (technically seven, plus two explosives) guns will last you longer than you think. I played hospital for two hours straight last night and none of it felt repetitive.

[frogopus]

Its something we've been hoping to get an answer for (if they know, know ones talking). But I can also say that in my experience, this is no budget game. I'd like to see it at $30, but I'd almost feel like it was selling itself short :P

[Conscriptt]

I don't doubt I'll spend most of my gaming time on this game, not afraid it won't last me long esp. if I get a good round of people, it's just I don't see this as a $60 game. Who knows, I'll probably end up buying it if it is but this honestly can't cost that much to develop since they aren't doing much marketing or intense specs. But hey who knows, since they aren't marketing it a lot maybe they are counting on the fact it will be a cheaper game and people will see it and grab it just because it's cheaper than the others. It's really that after seeing games like Gears of War, Halo 3, or Call of Duty 4, my expectations for a full price 360 game have driven insanely. (all though Halo 3 seriously lacked compared in editing options compared to the average PC game editor)

[frogopus]

It's all relative. TF2 cost $30 but I would pay full price for it because it gets a lot of play time. I might drop $50 for a game that lasts me 10 hours (if I'm lucky) and I feel like I got screwed.

I haven't bought CoD4 because I don't feel that I can give them that sort of cash for a 6 hour campaign (I'm not real interested in its multiplayer)

[MrIrony]

Keep in mind, too, that the 4 scenarios and 5 weapons are just the initial load. TRS mentioned they wanted to keep adding new maps and boss infected, so I expect the game will only get bigger.

[USS_Stud]

I find the source engine to be quite outdated...
but still, primitive graphics and low in features is a turn off, I see it as a well thought-out mod more than a game.

...Don't bother buying L4D. It seems you wouldn't appreciate what it has to offer.

[dontleave]

Quoting: USS_Stud
...Don't bother buying L4D. It seems you wouldn't appreciate what it has to offer.

[Jim_Riley]

I can see it being maybe around 30 bucks. Much like how Half- Life 2: Episode 1 was when I bought it.

[Dead Fish]

I don't think it will cost as much as Bioshock ($55) or CoD4 ($70 !) on Steam. Maybe like 40-50.

[squerl]

Yeah, we don't know anything about price right now. Do they sell X360 games for less than $60?

It seems like the sweet spot would be around $30-40. If they can get it to being a not-so-serious purchase (under $40) for CS/DOD players who want something new, I think they'll get a lot more people buying it. We know for sure that they'll be adding maps and more boss infected and keep updating it like crazy, but it's really hard to base a purchase on future features.

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

the games in holland are 45 euro's im earning that in 1 day (even more cos i work realy fucking hard) sooo........ im gonna buy it

[JutuRna130]

I find the source engine to be quite outdated

primitive graphics and low in features is a turn off, I see it as a well thought-out mod more than a game.

how do you consider the source engine to be "outdated" when its always being updated?
and...
have you not seen what hl2 ep2 looks like on the 360?
ive got it for both PC and 360, though playing it on PC was better in my opinion... the 360 version still looks amazing, definitely not primitive.

[hooray for zombies]

Am I the only one who is thinking that the Director was not cheap to create?

[Etheallmighty]

ZOMG!! I tink I found a solution for thexbox 360 problem (not that many levels, no modding,etc.)
...i think i'm starting a new thread on this one!

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

Am I the only one who is thinking that the Director was not cheap to create?
hmm thats a very interesting point. didnt even cross my mind...
no matter, i was expecting this game to be a full $50 without even thinking about it....
although i guess i could have wondered if it be the case taht the game sells for $30-$40, since for some reason Steam games tend to do taht...
but i wont be disappointed if its $50, but if its cheaper maybe i can get more ppl to buy it that normally wouldnt have....i showed my (not so close really,) friend that old PCG vid of l4d, and well, i didnt realize how boring it was if u had never heard of the game. I watched it (trying to make it seem like i had never heard of the game b4) and it was really boring...eventually he just turned around and said, "Gay" and walked over to the TV to play GH3...
uhh, sorry for getting off topic but thats my 2 cents...or 3...(hmmm thats a good price dont u think?) jk :)

[Conscriptt]

I won't appreciate what it has to offer so I shouldn't buy it? Right... open your eyes just a wee more.

And yes there below $60 games on 360, they are rare though. Also, about the source engine, from what I've seen I'm not impressed, source engine seems like a cheap alternative to making a really good engine or licensing something like the unreal engine, so it should be a cheaper game in return.

[dontleave]

open your eyes just a wee more.[...] source engine seems like a cheap alternative to making a really good engine or licensing something like the unreal engine, so it should be a cheaper game in return

Ironic.

First you say it's no more than a good mod idea, now you want them to make, or buy a license for a game engine for it?

I would say don't buy it, because A. No one(most people) here really wants to convince you otherwise, and could care less if you do and B. It doesn't seem like you were intent on buying it in the first place anyway.

I bought Ep2 and TF2 under the premise that they would be fun, the huge graphical leap(within the source engine) was just a bonus(and that they were all $50 in total). It's the same for L4D.

Overall though, I would estimate around $40. Less than a full fledged game, more than $30.

[gorgoth]

I think that this game should be $45 USD. Good price. Also, I'd play this game even if it had HL1 graphics. No joke, with a game like this, and Source games in general, it's not the graphics that make them good. That's just a great bonus.

[Dead Fish]

A. No one(most people) here really wants to convince you otherwise, and could care less if you do

It's funny how you assume everbody else on your side of the "argument" if you so will. I think he has a point. The choice of engine certainly is not an unimportant one. I sure came to love Source and it's still looking very sexy. There are however other engines (CryENGINE 2, Unreal Engine 3) that would bring more technical features to the table than Source does. After all Valve tries to keep down the system requirements more than other companies, which comes at a cost.

edit: it's the CryENGINE #2 of course....

[Kenny]

I agree there are more engines, but I believe that the Source engine is by far one of the easiest to work with, and is definitely one of the most refined ones for the purposes of this game. At least it would appear that way. I can't really imagine playing something like this in like.. the crytek or crytek 2 engine, kinda slow. UT3 Engine? Sure it would look great.. but it would feel like you are playing a higher budget arcade game with the speed. I think the source engine is perfect, it can be fine tuned to perfection with enough time!

... Can't wait! I would gladly pay $50 for this, honestly. Hands down. I would scrounge through my entire house to find it if I had to!

[Conscriptt]

Ironic.

First you say it's no more than a good mod idea, now you want them to make, or buy a license for a game engine for it?

I would say don't buy it, because A. No one(most people) here really wants to convince you otherwise, and could care less if you do and B. It doesn't seem like you were intent on buying it in the first place anyway.

I bought Ep2 and TF2 under the premise that they would be fun, the huge graphical leap(within the source engine) was just a bonus(and that they were all $50 in total). It's the same for L4D.

Overall though, I would estimate around $40. Less than a full fledged game, more than $30.

you put some words into my mouth.. =/ or just made it sound like how it shouldn't have...

[gorgoth]

Well I would pay $100 for it, but i think it should be $45

[Conscriptt]

Yes, $45 sounds reasonable.

[M1khail]

Modern games are just lacking in ideas and innovativity.Source-engine is more than capable in producing nice graphics.

[USS_Stud]

you put some words into my mouth.. =/ or just made it sound like how it shouldn't have...
Well this is what happened. First you were bummed about the chances of an unfair price handicap between console and PC. That's cool.
But then you said, and I guess you forgot, "I find the source engine to be quite outdated." and "but still, primitive graphics and low in features is a turn off, I see it as a well thought-out mod more than a game."
Bashing the game was uncalled for. And like I said (quoted) before. You don't come off as appreciating games for what they are and just look for what's "the hottest game of the year". COD4? Halo 3? Gears Of War? Yeah, definately going for the hype.

Anyways, it looks like you found a compromise to your price problem.

[Puscifer]

Modern games are just lacking in ideas and innovativity.Source-engine is more than capable in producing nice graphics.


I don't inderstand why ppl slag of the source engine saying it has shit graphics, i think it has some of the best graphics ive seen and the source engine is being updated all the time, so L4D will be running on like Source 3.0;P

Team fortress 2 added loads of new particle effects and facial animations etc so L4D can only be a better version of source:P

I will pay whatever the asking price is for the game because it will be the only game i ever play... ever

if they decide to sell it for 60 dollors fine by me, if they decide to sell it for 30 dollors even better:)))

[dontleave]

Actually, I was impressed by TF2 a helluva lot more than CoD4. And going to it, I never think it's lacking. Maybe it's simply not, or its just too damn fun to care.

Now that Puscifer mentions it, the facial effects in TF2 are top notch... EXCEPT for when I get headshotted as soldier, and my still corpses is still screaming and moving its mouth. Creepy/

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

After all Valve tries to keep down the system requirements more than other companies
thats a really good thing for me since my computer was new in 2000, and its very outdated at this point.
i cant play quake wars, hitman:blood money, or CoD4. (the first 2 were just demos i got offa steam, but i cant play cod4, im pretty sure.)
so im glad that they make the game look great with low sys req as well

[gorgoth]

Yeah the whole talking dead bodies creeps me out. But the facial stuff is great. Not many games have that.

[Conscriptt]

Well this is what happened. First you were bummed about the chances of an unfair price handicap between console and PC. That's cool.
But then you said, and I guess you forgot, "I find the source engine to be quite outdated." and "but still, primitive graphics and low in features is a turn off, I see it as a well thought-out mod more than a game."
Bashing the game was uncalled for. And like I said (quoted) before. You don't come off as appreciating games for what they are and just look for what's "the hottest game of the year". COD4? Halo 3? Gears Of War? Yeah, definately going for the hype.

Anyways, it looks like you found a compromise to your price problem.
No... I wasn't bummed out from the PC and 360 price points, I was just stating a concern with them, but that shouldn't be included in your analysis of my life here. I think the source engine is outdated... so what? It's not bashing unless that somehow hurts you because just cause I find something outdated. I find it as a mod with graphics like that and features, I see games out on the 360 and they are packed with levels, features, and what not. It doesn't feel right to buy a game full price no matter how good it may be that on paper, lacks what others have. Got it? Good.

[USS_Stud]

Whatever, didn't finished reading your post. Get the game or not.

[dontleave]

It doesn't feel right to buy a game full price no matter how good it may be that on paper, lacks what others have.

Okay.

[Conscriptt]

Okay.

Okay....

[engagequadlaser]

Yep, you sure got us. This obviously isn't worth full asking price, others have surely seen the light.


You can leave now.

[FRAGious]

This is not a budget game. It will revolutionize the world of Co-Operative Gaming

You can leave now.

[Rannos]

I don't think the source engine is shiny or hyped enough... so what?
fix'd
I find it as a mod with graphics like that and features, I see games out on the 360 and they are packed with levels, features, and what not.
First, find me a decent zombie mod with procedural (rather than trigger based,) spawning, balanced mechanics and episode two's new features, and you might be halfway right.
Second, this game is indeed packed with features (aforementioned procedural spawner, working and balanced bosses, unique gameplay) maps (comes with 20 when released, is slated to have more added to it,) and what not (merit system that reveals people for who they really are.) Frankly the only thing that actually makes it mod like is the fact that it has overused weapons and it uses the same engine as Half Life 2, which is apparently outdated. So, good luck finding a better multiplayer zombie game

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

It will revolutionize the world of Co-Operative Gaming
ill pay full price for that
and if you dont got the money cos your por and 14 then you[
quote=zTeFaN] can leave now.[/quote]

[boomers but crack]

Hi, i usually just read posts and news here.

But after reading Conscripts post I felt the need too point out some or rather one game mechanic that is unique to "left4dead". The most important too me is Dynamic IK/physics animations!

What's new about these you ask? well no game currently released has them working as well as L4D, all games out at the moment have simple scripted animations so when you appear to bump into some one it's merely a script that has been triggered by a certain circumstance like.... running full speed past an npc and intersecting a hit box.

Now with left4dead it appears to you use dynamic IK which isn't a new feature on games (see doom3 ROE) but I haven't seen it used so well on a full biped the motion tweening when an NPC is scrambling over Phys boxes and brushes in the game is impressive.

Now assuming this isn't scripted for an infected to scramble over a predefined object say a car for example. It gives way for great map design, anyone could build and just focus on a map and not have to worry about the npc's interacting with it. For example if I built a map for "Gears of war" I would have to put "cover" entities all over the place I can't just place some brushes around and expect it too work.

Now I'm sure some of it is scripted because some of you will remember an "infected" reaching through some bars, that part looked like a predefined script but when infected where scrambling around and on top cars, trains etc etc.. That looked like the dynamic physics animations.

Ok... that's the jist of what I mean.

If you're still confused here's some further examples.

A dynamic physics motion tweened animation works something like this, you have a biped (skeleton for the model) and on that biped you have ridged parts hands, feet and pelvis being primary. So with bendy IK animations you could make it so both feet need to be on a surface and not floating in the air so when you go up some stairs the legs will bend with in set constraints (so its legs don't bend the wrong way and spaz out) to make feet touch individually on surfaces, to extend this lets say you have an NPC standing on a car you could script it so when it moves on the car and both of it's feet aren't touching a surface a gravity modifier will kick in and make the foot in the air weighted and make the character fall off the object and establish when both feet are on a surface again.

Ok to further this you make this even more complex by using further parts like the hands/pelvis or what ever to interact with surfaces (brushes/physics boxes) so when the character is in free fall the biped will motion tween according to which boxes hit the surface(s) first so the characters limbs don't go through the level and you can smooth this all out with different in depended animations for the ridged biped parts.

Obviously you can't use this method for everything but it does make NPC's knocking into each other climbing, knocking and falling off objects totally dynamic which means you won't get repetitive movement all the time. This may sound simple but getting round physics bugs and doing this seamlessly is quite a feet.

You may not be focusing on that fact but you will aesthetically acknowledge it when you're playing the game as it gives realistic movement to characters unlike in games like Gears of war (which is a fun game btw) where the characters all do the same thing over and over again. You'll get to see the infected slamming into each other falling off cars, roofs etc..

CONCLUSION.

In conclusion saying this game is nothing more than a mod is ridiculous. BIOSHOCK uses the U3 engine they didn't make it and they sure as hell didn't make any interesting game mechanics for it. L4D is pretty pioneering in a lot of ways, sure it use's an out of date engine but the gameplay and mechanics are impressive to say the least!

So in other words your logic is flawed and if you think L4D is a mod then most of the games you pay $100 for out there are nothing but new weapons and new levels and are nothing more than shiny dicks.

[Dead Fish]

L4D is pretty pioneering in a lot of ways, sure it use's an out of date engine but the gameplay and mechanics are impressive to say the least!

Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for posting btw, very interesting!

Ah, and welcome to the forums. ;)

[Eddy_of_the_dead]

welcome to the forums dude!
So in other words your logic is flawed and if you think L4D is a mod then most of the games you pay $100 for out there are nothing but new weapons and new levels and are nothing more than shiny dicks.
and thats is the truth!

[boomers but crack]

Thanks for the welcome guys, as far as i'm concernd the only thing that's realy missing from this game is an a occasional flare gun so you can shoot it into a zombie and set it on fire!

[asu]

as far as i'm concernd the only thing that's realy missing from this game is an a occasional flare gun so you can shoot it into a zombie and set it on fire!

molotov cocktail ;)

[hooray for zombies]

through your name and long post decrying exactly why he's wrong, I have deducted that you will fit right in here at the 411.

[boomers but crack]

Yes yes it took me many an hour too come up with an award winning name such as "Boomers but crack". I may use it when I play the infected online :) now too find an appropriate avatar....

Don't try finding one on google without turning "Adult content filter" on unless you like gay porn :(

[Sifer2]

The Resident Evil Outbreak games were the same deal you know. They had only 5 scenarios. An they were not even randomized so you were literally replaying the same levels over an over. Yet I spent upwards of 70 hours on them. In other words im sure Left 4 Dead will be worth it. An they may even release new content for free for it if we are lucky.

[Conscriptt]

Yessssssss, fanboyism for a game not yet released, I also love the: you can leave now comments.

because i know i can always leave, i dont need someone to inform me on that.

[squerl]

Yessssssss, fanboyism for a game not yet released

To be fair, this is a forum dedicated to the game, so of course you're dealing with people that are looking forward to the game/have a favorable opinion of it, and to expect anything else isn't very reasonable.

I think the general feeling is that from comments like this:

Also, about the source engine, from what I've seen I'm not impressed, source engine seems like a cheap alternative to making a really good engine or licensing something like the unreal engine, so it should be a cheaper game in return.

it seems like you're just bashing the Source engine with no real reason. Crappy games are crappy games no matter what engine they're using, I don't think anyone will say the Orange Box/TF2 are horrible games and have 'outdated' graphics. The Source engine seems to get a lot of flack, just because it scales to lower end machines. You want top of the line graphics? Crysis hasn't reached 100k copies, and UT3 is at 33k as of a week ago (source: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50410 ).

I have a top of the line system, and yeah, Crysis demo was pretty. I don't want this to turn into a gameplay vs graphics debate because those never go anywhere. My point is, you should never base the value of a game on the engine it runs on, you should base it on the quality of the game.

If you watch the videos, the animations and atmosphere and everything else look great, and people with really poor computers will be able to run it, and people like myself will be able to run it with all the goodies turned on. And why shouldn't TRS use the Source engine? They've worked with Valve for their other projects and its what they're most familiar with.

[dontleave]

Yessssssss, fanboyism for a game not yet released, I also love the: you can leave now comments.

because i know i can always leave, i dont need someone to inform me on that.

Dude, YOU ARE DENSE LOL.

That MUST'VE been a joke.

[boomers but crack]

Yessssssss, fanboyism for a game not yet released

Well I was just pointing out that there's more too a game than shadows and shaders, you obviously don't have appreciation for anything more than sparkly trinkets.

But that's your loss, I don't think anyone will be losing sleep over it.

[USS_Stud]

More stupid people on the internet who don't know what an Engine is.

[FireFog]

We don't want Oblivion with guns and zombies... we just want an innovative and original game.
(I took exemple of Oblivion because it was a pain to get working on my computer ^^)

And I have other priorities than buying a new computer every 6 months.

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

And I have other priorities than buying a new computer every 6 months.
here here!
my computer is a piece of sh*t!
and im glad that i'll be able to play l4d with it!
if this game was on a better engine, i would not be playing this game with u guys some day.
the money just isnt here now to get a new compy, and im glad that the game's features and gameplay are so good that amazing graphics are not needed.

[OBLITROX]

40$

[Stupoider]

I'll pay anything for this game, been following it for the past year now 8D

[OBLITROX]

yea i would pay only to 80$

[Gforcemember45]

And I have other priorities than buying a new computer every 6 months.

That's why you build custom, you're always able to make upgrades when necessary. and I only spent 2k on building mine.

[dontleave]

yea i would pay only to 80$

I would pay to $120CAD, which is what I paid for GTA:SA. This is definately more worth it. Luckily, I won't have to pay that much. It'll probably only be $40.00

[Halfeatendonkey]

Holy friggin cow this dude sounds exactly like my Brother ! Tho,you fail.

[daleluck1313]

Commenting on the first post -

The Source engine is being updated frequently, so calling it outdates is liking calling the iPhone an average mobile.
Also, L4D is going to be having more weapons and more boss infected added soon, according to a certain magazine showing Cornfield and an interview.

Dontleave, you paid $120CAD for SA? Why?

[OBLITROX]

Hi, i usually just read posts and news here.

But after reading Conscripts post I felt the need too point out some or rather one game mechanic that is unique to "left4dead". The most important too me is Dynamic IK/physics animations!

What's new about these you ask? well no game currently released has them working as well as L4D, all games out at the moment have simple scripted animations so when you appear to bump into some one it's merely a script that has been triggered by a certain circumstance like.... running full speed past an npc and intersecting a hit box.

Now with left4dead it appears to you use dynamic IK which isn't a new feature on games (see doom3 ROE) but I haven't seen it used so well on a full biped the motion tweening when an NPC is scrambling over Phys boxes and brushes in the game is impressive.

Now assuming this isn't scripted for an infected to scramble over a predefined object say a car for example. It gives way for great map design, anyone could build and just focus on a map and not have to worry about the npc's interacting with it. For example if I built a map for "Gears of war" I would have to put "cover" entities all over the place I can't just place some brushes around and expect it too work.

Now I'm sure some of it is scripted because some of you will remember an "infected" reaching through some bars, that part looked like a predefined script but when infected where scrambling around and on top cars, trains etc etc.. That looked like the dynamic physics animations.

Ok... that's the jist of what I mean.

If you're still confused here's some further examples.

A dynamic physics motion tweened animation works something like this, you have a biped (skeleton for the model) and on that biped you have ridged parts hands, feet and pelvis being primary. So with bendy IK animations you could make it so both feet need to be on a surface and not floating in the air so when you go up some stairs the legs will bend with in set constraints (so its legs don't bend the wrong way and spaz out) to make feet touch individually on surfaces, to extend this lets say you have an NPC standing on a car you could script it so when it moves on the car and both of it's feet aren't touching a surface a gravity modifier will kick in and make the foot in the air weighted and make the character fall off the object and establish when both feet are on a surface again.

Ok to further this you make this even more complex by using further parts like the hands/pelvis or what ever to interact with surfaces (brushes/physics boxes) so when the character is in free fall the biped will motion tween according to which boxes hit the surface(s) first so the characters limbs don't go through the level and you can smooth this all out with different in depended animations for the ridged biped parts.

Obviously you can't use this method for everything but it does make NPC's knocking into each other climbing, knocking and falling off objects totally dynamic which means you won't get repetitive movement all the time. This may sound simple but getting round physics bugs and doing this seamlessly is quite a feet.

You may not be focusing on that fact but you will aesthetically acknowledge it when you're playing the game as it gives realistic movement to characters unlike in games like Gears of war (which is a fun game btw) where the characters all do the same thing over and over again. You'll get to see the infected slamming into each other falling off cars, roofs etc..

CONCLUSION.

In conclusion saying this game is nothing more than a mod is ridiculous. BIOSHOCK uses the U3 engine they didn't make it and they sure as hell didn't make any interesting game mechanics for it. L4D is pretty pioneering in a lot of ways, sure it use's an out of date engine but the gameplay and mechanics are impressive to say the least!

So in other words your logic is flawed and if you think L4D is a mod then most of the games you pay $100 for out there are nothing but new weapons and new levels and are nothing more than shiny dicks.

Exactly... :)

[dontleave]

Commenting on the first post -

The Source engine is being updated frequently, so calling it outdates is liking calling the iPhone an average mobile.
Also, L4D is going to be having more weapons and more boss infected added soon, according to a certain magazine showing Cornfield and an interview.

Dontleave, you paid $120CAD for SA? Why?

Well first off, IT'S CANADA. And second, it's the 1337 grand daddy of all PS2 games and one of the best games IMO. San Andreas. And I MAY have bought it from Futureshop.

[USS_Stud]

The Source engine is being updated frequently, so calling it outdates is liking calling the iPhone an average mobile.

But saying iPhone is an update is like saying EA updates their games every year.