L4D bundled with ep3?

[Ayrehead]

I've read a couple topics on different forums, and people seem to think (or want) that valve is going to bundle l4d with ep3. I personally don't see it happening, valve may like to bundle things and love giving their customers deals but cmon there are just too many people that would pay full price for l4d.

PS
I would still love it though :-)

[AzH]

I heard that the release for EP3 would not be until 2009. L4D is Q3/4 2008. Doesn't tally that they'd bundle.

[squerl]

I hope not. If anything, release L4D, then a year later (or whenever Ep3 is released), bundle it alongside. Sort of like they did with the Orange Box and HL2/Ep1. I believe this would be fair to everyone that already bought it (they got a years worth of it).. what do you guys think if that happened?

[hool10]

Yea mainly the people who think it's bundled with Ep3 are completely lost. They have yet to even start making the game yet as they are still trying to figure out what to do in it. I don't know where the rumor started, but it's just dumb.

[Atari]

It's a possibility but I highly doubt it. I think L4D is almost complete and will be out this year and EP3 will be out in 2009 bundled with some other game(s) that we've not been told about as yet.

The only reason I think it's a possibility is because of the merger with Valve and the fact that ShackNews may have been told the approx release date before the merger, or in other words, now they've (Turtle Rock) merged with Valve, the agenda may have changed.

But I still doubt it. Valve know their market more than any other developer and they'll know the anticipation that already surrounds the game through the Steam forums and obviously through 411.

Yes, they're watching...be afraid.

[Ayrehead]

Ok good I didnt think it would be smart or very plausible for them to do that, and obviously you guys think the same.

When I did hear of this rumor it did get me thinking of what Valve would actually pack in with episode 3?

Personally I dont think they will pack in anything like portal 2, or anything that would resemble the orange box.

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

if ep3 is packaged with anything at all, it will definitely have l4d in there, along with some other games, possibly even more zombie games yay :)
the zombie box lol. jk that sounds stupid
EDIT: do realize, that my first sentence does not imply that l4d will be delayed till then, just that it will be put in the box possibly after its release

[Big Stu]

I don't see it happening. Episode 3 and L4D are probably the two biggest money spinners on Valve's schedule right now, by releasing them together they'd be missing out on twice the profits.

(i realise The Orange Box might be considered an exception, but in all reality, it was just one full retail titles, backed up by four smaller titles in the end)

That's just how i see things anyway.

Besides, episode 3 won't be out until the dawn of DX14 anyway, so it's unlikely they'll hold back L4D that long.

[OBLITROX]

zombie box lol

The Dead box...lol that would be cool...but they arent going to bundle those together

A person who thought it would be awsome if that happend had said "They should bundle l4d with Ep3" and someone else was like "totally". but they interpreted it as "They are?...awesome!!. OMG i have to tell everyone that its bundled together yay!!!"...thats how it started.

[Clamzoni_of_RI]

Yah Episode 3. That a couple crowbars away from now.

[Armored_Zombie_Cow]

The Dead box
The Undead Box (yes, i know, the l4d zombies are not undead)

[Sifer2]

Episode 3 will probably be bundled with Half Life 2 remade with better graphics an stuff. They did say they planned to do that didn't they? Some kind of Half Life 2 complete edition or something. Then they will finally work on Half Life 3 lol.

[dontleave]

As far as I know, the 'episodes' are Half-Life 3. No Half-Life 3 is planned, and they don't ever plan on making one.

The Undead Box is an inappropriate name for the package, considering, yes, they're not undead... But neither is anything in HL/HL2.

The Black Box is fine.

[Clamzoni_of_RI]

No, i believe they do plan to make a third Half Life. Episode three is not the conclusion. I mean, how would they bring Aperture Science into the game with that ship ("Borealis"?) and then finish it in a 6 hour episode. I believe there is a third game planned.

[OBLITROX]

No, i believe they do plan to make a third Half Life. Episode three is not the conclusion. I mean, how would they bring Aperture Science into the game with that ship ("Borealis"?) and then finish it in a 6 hour episode. I believe there is a third game planned.

I agree.

[dontleave]

No, i believe they do plan to make a third Half Life. Episode three is not the conclusion. I mean, how would they bring Aperture Science into the game with that ship ("Borealis"?) and then finish it in a 6 hour episode. I believe there is a third game planned.

I don't think you realize what I mean when I said that the episodes are HL3... Because you inferred that six hours is too short a time to finish a game.

The episodes meaning: all three. Together. As in, 15+ Hours already, +6 more... 20+ Hours. Whole game. As in the culmination of all three episodes, without pause, is intended to be Half-Life 3.

Again, as far as I know Half Life 2: Episode Three is the last installment of the HL/Gordon Freeman story arc, but not necessarily the last in the franchise. (As in, Opposing Force etc.)

I'd also like to state: You have no clue what Valve's going to do with Ep3. So they cant "cant"

[Clamzoni_of_RI]

Well, then neither is your argument correct. This is a practice in assumption, as is most of these threads.

You did not address the fact that they are just now having Alyx and Gordon go check out a Aperture Science ship. It is highly unlikely that they will rap this entire story up in the next 6 hours of gameplay.

They would then have to explain the G-Man, and his affliation as well. I highly doubt they would leave this open to interpretation. Personally, I think there is too much plot to cover for them to achieve what they desire in their final act to have it be Episode 3.

[dontleave]

Yeah, and who says Episode 3 will simply be 6 hours? The G-Man story started rolling at the end of Episode 2, I can't imagine them not finishing it within Ep3.

Valve has said many times that the episodes were a trilogy, it's only logical to assume that Gordon's story arc, as it's continued through, will end with Episode 3. And that there's many articles floating around that say the story arc will conclude with Ep3, but that doesn't necessarily mean the end of the HL franchise.

It makes no sense not to finish Half Life with Ep3, unless they were to make it on a whole new engine. Which seems just as much unlikely as them not finishing it within Ep3.

[Ayrehead]

It's been said by someone at Valve that these episodes are Half Life 3, and that episode 3 will wrap up the gordon story arc.

So dontleave is right from what I have gathered, and they also stated that this will not be the end of Half Life, it's just the end of this section of it.

[Sifer2]

Well im with the other guy I don't see how they can wrap it up in the space of another episode unless it turns out to be a really freaking long episode. At least as long as Half Life 2. Anything less is just going to feel tacky an rushed. If they intended to end it this soon they should have spent less time making us shoot stuff an had more plot development going.

[Shroom]

The episodes are HL3, valve said instead of making hl3 which would take years, about the same amount as hl2 which i gathered was a long time, theyd release it in a trilogy of episodes.

[hool10]

Episode 3 will conclude the HL2 story arc. There will be a HL3 but it may be in episodes or just a full blown game. Valve will ask the community what they want after episode 3.

[Puscifer]

the red/black box would sound best, but i dont want to have to wait for left 4 dead just for episode 3...

yea episode 3 will be good, and i cant wait to carry on the story, but left 4 dead is on another level entirely, ooo the AI, the animations all the additions to the source engine etc

gonna be epic! :)

edit

they could release just the hospital and cornfield campaigns as a beta and it would still be the best game ever and it would be all i'd play lol:)

[Jim_Riley]

Nonsense.

I have a feeling that EP3 MIGHT not be bundled with anything apart from possibly episode two and maybe even one.


But, EP3 won't be coming out for a while so L4D will be coming a lot earlier.

[Puscifer]

I have a feeling that EP3 MIGHT not be bundled with anything apart from possibly episode two and maybe even one.


that would not be a good marketing idea in my opinion, the amount of ppl that brought ep1 and 2 with the orange box.. well im guessing it was a lot. dont think they would want to pay for them a 3rd time, even if they do have really nice m8s lol:p

[josko]

Yes, they're watching...be afraid.

No, be VERY afraid...

Hehe..

[TheDark12]

They would then have to explain the G-Man, and his affliation as well. I highly doubt they would leave this open to interpretation. Personally, I think there is too much plot to cover for them to achieve what they desire in their final act to have it be Episode 3.
I really honestly think that if you expect the G-Man to be explained in the next episode you will be extremely disappointed.
The appeal of the G-Man is that he isn't completely explained. What fun would it be if we found it all out immediately?

As far as the Borealis goes, I think, since the end of Ep2 ended with a helicopter, the start will probably find you on your way there somehow.
The way I see it, it can only go two ways:

1. Our typical Half Life "crashed and now we have to walk the rest of the way"
2. Get there and find out that getting in was only half of the battle.

As for Half Life 3, I reckon it'll be more likely that they'll bring out another string of episodes. Personally, I prefer the episodic installments to a new full blown game. I still think that to this day the Source engine is the best engine in the world. The only changes that it needs is some Direct X 10 compatibility, and I don't doubt that they'll start working on that for episode 3.

The last thing I want is to wait another 10 years for another next-gen engine. If it's rushed it'll be the Crysis engine, which with respect is crap-tastic. If they just keep expanding the Source engine (as they are), I think that this source engine will probably be usable for at least the next twenty years.

Comparing the graphics of Ep2 to the original HL2, there have been some huge additions, I just think a little bit more proceedural actions with the characters is called for and it'll stand the test of time for another three episodes at least.

Heck, if you're from Valve and want a to do list, I'll make it for you, just email me!

[dontleave]

I think that this source engine will probably be usable for at least the next twenty years.

Lol.

[TheDark12]

If they kept expanding it, why not? To this day they've got a better lipsync program than any other engine. They've got better bloom effects than most games, still have impressive textures, which with updates can continue to keep up with the trends. The only major advance they need is DX10 compatibility.

Of course, by twenty years from now the engine will probably have advanced so much that it would barely resemble what it is now, but I stand by my opinion.

[dontleave]

Have you played many games out there? The Source engine is in the shitter when it comes to many of them. Sure they can add nifty features, but they can't completely retrofit the engine to make it NEAR comparable to the others. It's impossible. Now I agree that it still has years on it, with the release of Episode 3 still pending, but 20 years man? That's longer than computers and consoles last. I have no doubt we'll have a PS4, Xbox 720 and Nintendo Yuu by then. And by then, we'll have near photo realistic games the Source engine in it's current state, or any other state can't imagine. Or keep up with.

[gorgoth]

Half Life will never die. And I think that we all know that we want Half Life 4. I wouldn't feel right if EP3 was the end of it. However, I think that if they do make Half Life 3, it will be like Half Life 2; in the sense that it comes after Half Life 1 but does not really connect to it. I think this whole Borealis problem will be wrapped up in EP3, but the Gman/Aperture phenomenon will be a cliff hanger.

[dontleave]

Half Life will never die. And I think that we all know that we want Half Life 4. I wouldn't feel right if EP3 was the end of it. However, I think that if they do make Half Life 3, it will be like Half Life 2; in the sense that it comes after Half Life 1 but does not really connect to it. I think this whole Borealis problem will be wrapped up in EP3, but the Gman/Aperture phenomenon will be a cliff hanger.

All good stories come to an end. I really hope HL does too, otherwise I've wasted a good 5 years, and $80.00 on it.

Aperture Science isn't a phenomenon, it's a rival company endorsed by the DOD like Black Mesa, instead they invested their time on other methods of teleportation. One of them was the Borealis which ended up missing until Mossman happened to find it.

G-Man was picking up at the end of Ep2, if it's not resolved by Ep3, I'd feel cheated of my money and that I wasted my time.

I really hope Valve doesnt become one of those game developers that drag a story on longer than it should be. HL DESERVES an end. The only way I can see extending the games any longer is if it's on brand spankin new engine, THAT DOESNT release on 2018.

[gorgoth]

This is why Half Life is good. Half Life 1 had a definite end. Yet there was Half Life 2. I think this will continue, although frankly, I think that this particular storyline is too hefty to be wrapped up in one more episode. I agree, it needs an end, but I don't think it's end has come quite yet. And by phenomenon, I meant the unresolved problem. I do in fact know all about Aperture. Hard not to if you see the power point in Portal :D

[dontleave]

They can do it, they have to do it. The only excuse they have of not finishing the HL story within Ep3 is that:

"Oh sorry, the game was too awesome we had to put it on this new engine we've already been working on for a while so it won't take until 2018 to release HL3 BOOYAH WAKKA WAKKA!"

[gorgoth]

I'd also like to state: You have no clue what Valve's going to do with Ep3. So they cant "cant"
Oh, sorry, did you say that? :D

I think it works both ways.

[gorgoth]

And yeah, that would be the main excuse, although my favorite one is "We have a plan for the story of this series and it doesn't end in EP3"

And I'm bored now, in the end it doesn't matter what they do because I think all of us here know that either way it will be very, very enjoyable.

[TheDark12]

Have you played many games out there? The Source engine is in the shitter when it comes to many of them.
Err, shittier? Yes, you could say that I've played many games. I've never seen an engine that does it's job better than the source engine, that's not to say I've never seen an engine that looks prettier - but that's a completely different case all together. If source is one of the shittier engines out there, name an engine that's better than Source?

Half Life will never die. And I think that we all know that we want Half Life 4. I wouldn't feel right if EP3 was the end of it. However, I think that if they do make Half Life 3, it will be like Half Life 2; in the sense that it comes after Half Life 1 but does not really connect to it. I think this whole Borealis problem will be wrapped up in EP3, but the Gman/Aperture phenomenon will be a cliff hanger.
I agree that this is extremely likely.

[dontleave]

Unreal Engine? CryEngine 2? CoD4 engine?

I'd like to hear what Source's "job" is. And how it does it better than any of these. Especially UE3. All of these deliver uncompromisingly good games, and all except the latter have friendly community support. (With CoD4 modding tools only now starting to be released) Source is dated, it's visible in many aspects. You'd be blind and ignorant not to see it.

Not hating on the Source engine, I like it's familiar feel, and was thoroughly impressed by The Orange Box, but it's hard not to ignore it falling behind. And saying that it can compete toe to toe on a technical level with other engines out now, and stand the test of time, your example of TWENTY years... Is ludicrous.

I think somewhere along the road you were lead to believe that the little visual enhancements could ultimately lead to an entire redux of the engine, and eventually it would have UT3 or even Crysis level graphics. Unfortunately, that won't, that can't happen. I don't follow closely to what Valve says anymore, but they were talking of a new renderer they would introduce into the Source engine. I don't know if it happened yet or not with the Orange Box, but that proves two things: It's hard as fuck to do, and takes a long time. All that to get a step behind all recent engines, but still... A step behind.

A new HL game is improbable, and if it does, however unlikely it is, come to pass... Then Valve totally went back on their word, and wasted a shitload of time on the Episodes. There's only so far they can go without making it feel like they're EAing the shit out of HL and milking it for all it's worth.

They should end the story with Episode 3, like they said they would. And if it doesn't end there, make a totally new engine. Which I don't think they'll do considering they're still optimistically supporting Source and TF2.

So a new engine... Or Episode 3 finale, coupled with Blue Shift or OpFor: Source.

[Puscifer]

source engine is still gonna own everything, mark my words.

when Left 4 Dead comes out its gonna be so good:)

[TheDark12]

They should end the story with Episode 3, like they said they would.
I don't remember Valve ever saying this, but I won't doubt that I'm out of the loop. I remember them saying something along the lines of, "We'll make three episodes then decide where we go from there."

A new HL game is improbable, and if it does, however unlikely it is, come to pass... Then Valve totally went back on their word, and wasted a shitload of time on the Episodes.
I wouldn't say that the episodes were ever a waste of time. I think that they were brilliant additions to the series, exactly what I wanted anyway.

Unreal Engine? CryEngine 2? CoD4 engine?
I'd like to hear what Source's "job" is. And how it does it better than any of these. Especially UE3.
In my opinion, the job of any engine is to run on a variety of systems, delivering stable gameplay, high end graphics and performance. Along with as many as your other little features as the system can handle.

There is no engine better than source for this.

Now, luckily for you I've played on all of the above engines in one way or another so I'll explain to you my reasons.

The UE3 Engine
Bioshock - There is no doubt in my mind that the UE3 engine is good. I've never been a fan of Unreal engines, simply because from the very first one they were just bad.
The UE3 engine is good, but only that, for several reasons. Most of these reasons apply to most of the engines you've mentioned.

The game is clunky. Your movement feels restricted. It's easy not to see and feel this when you're playing in single player on a fast computer. Slow your computer down a bit and you'll see. Even with lower graphics your game is clunky.

How should I explain 'clunky'? Basically, when I point at something, I want to know that I'm going to hit it. There's something about these high end graphics powered engines that just don't do it for me. I can feel the drag as I move around the maps, slowing down my pFerformance just so that everything can look nice. I don't like it.

I should say that of the three engines you've mentioned, I think that the UE3 engine is only midrange in this category. But I standby my point all the same.

Easily, the biggest perpetrator is the CryEngine2. Even on my system, which isn't exactly brand spankin' but also isn't too bad. It struggles. (3.0Ghz AMD64, 2GB DDR2-667, DualSLI 7600GT's) . If you still think Crysis is good, then obviously you are a graphics man. No doubt about it.

While everyone else was touching themselves over the volumetric 3D clouds, I was busy actually trying to enjoy the game, which I found difficult because the game wasn't actually that fun. For a game that introduces a few 'unique' abilities into it's gameplay, such as moving quickly, being super strong or turning invisible, *cough* Deus Ex did it better *cough*, I really think the engine let it down on all counts.

I don't doubt for a second that the CryEngine2 is the most advanced graphical engine to this day, but still. Apart from the graphics, everything seems weak.

Also, the fact that the AI is particularly insane. At some times having space age X-Ray vision and at other times being completely oblivious to your footprints in the sand doesn't seem to match up. I just can't stand being hunted down through the entire map, when a lone man in an INVISIBLE SUIT, should be able to escape a bunch of angry Koreans with AK-74's.

Crysis was not a bad game, but it definitely wasn't an excellent one. An excellent game would've been designed around it's gameplay features, rather than designed around it's graphics. Seriously, does anyone else feel like Cloak is absolutely useless in a terrain that big? It runs out in five seconds and you're back to 'crouch-in-the-bushes-and-hope-they-don't-see-me' mode all too quickly.

COD4 is a brilliant engine to play on, but like the others, it's feels a bit sluggish. Not as bad, but just a little. I don't exactly know how to explain it, other than to say "try playing Counter Strike Source on it and you'll be playing a very, very different game." If you could, you would totally understand what I mean.

Again, COD4, like the others, has brilliant graphics. There's only a few games that I've ever played that has camoflague that actually works. When you play through the missions or even on the Internet, you can't see your friends and enemies if they are hiding in the bushes - it's pretty breathtaking.

Even playing COD4 on the Internet isn't too bad. Even so, it just doesn't seem as clean as the source engine feels.

Secondly, the AI, which is a major consideration when looking at the single player game, is built entirely for atmosphere and show. I don't know how many time's I've sat for a few minutes shooting at guys that keep coming out of the same door, standing in the same place, shooting at me.

The only possible way to beat it is to progress. If anything, this is the only feature which detracts majorly from the gameplay. When you actually notice that you're being made a fool of. You could literally shoot the population of an entire continent if you stood in the right spot. Simply because the AI is only there to add to the chaotic atmosphere. I think that you could win that game without shooting a single bullet. Simply because the job gets done for you as long as you keep running.

I don't really know how to explain it. Source engine is just so much cleaner and crisper than the others. It doesn't look as great, but as I've seen with Episode 2 it can keep on keeping up. If they upgrade it majorly, it'll stand the test of time. True enough, right now it's beginning to show its age, but I don't doubt that it's designed in such a way that it's easily expandable.

I think what really makes the Source engine the best is the fact that it was designed for PC. Not designed for Consoles, but also caters for PC, or designed for PC but also caters for consoles. It's only a PC engine. The failure of HL2 on other systems totally supports my point.

The engine is all about 'this bullet will go where I shoot it, kill what a pointed at and do all that without any drag on my computer'. It'll hold a steady 50-100 FPS on high end systems with all features switched on. In fact, on CS:S, after a stress test and appropriate graphics adjustment, it holds a steady 100 FPS on my Mum's computer (which my brother used to play on). Which has only AMD2000+, 512DDR400 and a 128MB Graphics card (ATI, not sure which model but we bought it for $50AU around the time of the 7600's). That's at a resolution of 1024x768. That ain't half bad.

You'll probably pick this to pieces only because I know you like an arguement, but go ahead. I think source is great because it runs great, it works perfectly in whatever game it's applied to (and almost any system it's applied to, except maybe Dark Messiah: Might and Magic. I still thought that was an OK game, I blame Ubisoft for all it's shortcomings.) ...and... I think that's it.

Make some points for me to respond to and I will.

[Dead Fish]

tl;dr - I like Source most.

[dontleave]

In my opinion, the job of any engine is to run on a variety of systems, delivering stable gameplay, high end graphics and performance. Along with as many as your other little features as the system can handle.

Funny because Source has dated graphics, and not so good performance. It's FPS drops frequently, unlike UT3 which stays at a constant well above 30. UE3 is optimized amazingly, and hasn ever dropped under 30FPS on one of my computers, which I dont own anymore... Grr (8600GT) Whereas Source had no trouble doing that. And it shouldn't really... You'd expect graphics that are lacking in comparison shouldn't take more from your frames but it did.

You can't appreciate an engine when you can't run it on fullest. There is no drag whatsoever, it feels just as responsive and clean as any other game. I mainly brought up Crysis because of the plethora of new visual features it has, and that HL2 doesn't. If Crysis is already like this, then games 20 years from now will be... Mhm... well.

Dark Messiah was great... Don't know why people didn't like that game. CoD4 has especially challenging AI on veteran, but yes, it was made for the cinematic experience. HL2's AI isn't that great either, they run at you and shoot, and sometimes take cover. CoD4 and Crysis has them take cover, distract, lay down suppressing fire and flank you.

Lol, you realize your not entirely invisible when you're running through a bunch of bushes, the game also has a noise meter... Which you should watch.

[TheDark12]

Funny because Source has dated graphics, and not so good performance. It's FPS drops frequently, unlike UT3 which stays at a constant well above 30. UE3 is optimized amazingly, and hasn ever dropped under 30FPS on one of my computers, which I dont own anymore... Grr (8600GT) Whereas Source had no trouble doing that. And it shouldn't really... You'd expect graphics that are lacking in comparison shouldn't take more from your frames but it did.
I totally admit that the UE3 engine is pretty impressive. I've never ever had a problem with source dropping in frames though? Obviously we've had completely different experiences!

You can't appreciate an engine when you can't run it on fullest.
A fair point, but I consider an engine to be 'good' when it runs on many systems, regardless of their specifications. (Within reason of course)

There is no drag whatsoever, it feels just as responsive as any other game. I mainly brought up Crysis because of the plethora of new visual features it has, and that HL2 doesn't. If Crysis is already like this, then games 20 years from now will be... Mhm... well.
I'll admit Crysis has better graphics, but to me, graphics isn't what makes a game. The AI is pretty good too I'll admit, I'd rank it's AI #1 out of the three engines, but I still prefer the Source AI.

Dark Messiah was great... Don't know why people didn't like that game.
Amen brother. Though in my opinion, Valve did it better on all counts (See Portal, TF2, HL2+Eps).

CoD4 has especially challenging AI on veteran, but yes, it was made for the cinematic experience.
I don't doubt that the AI was challenging. Just unrealistic. When you actually realize that you're being made an idiot of, it's breaks that barrier of suspended disbelief. When that happens, you're in dangerous waters.

Lol, you realize your not entire invisible when you're running through a bunch of bushes, the game also has a noise meter... Which you should watch.
I do realize that. My main complaint is that even though you're apparently a man in a super suit, you're never in an environment to make it stand out. Rarely there's a puzzle that actually requires you to use your abilities (there's the stealth bit in the freezer bit and some hills that require more strength to jump onto them but that's about it). I just would've liked to see an environment with puzzles that actually REQUIRED the use of these cool new features that they introduced. It would've made the game so much better.

I guess that's just a shortcoming of any game with non-linear design.

[dontleave]

I do realize that. My main complaint is that even though you're apparently a man in a super suit, you're never in an environment to make it stand out. Rarely there's a puzzle that actually requires you to use your abilities (there's the stealth bit in the freezer bit and some hills that require more strength to jump onto them but that's about it). I just would've liked to see an environment with puzzles that actually REQUIRED the use of these cool new features that they introduced. It would've made the game so much better.

I guess that's just a shortcoming of any game with non-linear design.

Guess that's true, but hopefully Tiberium fixes that! You have abilities in that game too, atleast super jump. Anyway, back to the thingum... That is actually what made Crysis suck, the entire SP was the 'Sandbox'. I ended up playing it once through, admittedly astounded by the Attacking part of the storyline (Those marines looked cool) and then played Sandbox from then on. Still a pretty game, and if all you do is sandbox, then it's worth it.

Although it works well in the certain parts of the game where you fight other nanosuit baddies, and it's great fun in MP, it just sucked in SP.

A fair point, but I consider an engine to be 'good' when it runs on many systems, regardless of their specifications. (Within reason of course)

Well, times change, hardware is getting old. CoD4 and UE3 run on a wide variety of machines. Even Valve is admitting it now, they can't cater to the needs of everyone forever. That's why they were apparently leaning towards the more geared up market with Orange Box.

[TheDark12]

Guess that's true, but hopefully Tiberium fixes that!
I hope so too! Personally the Command and Conquer series are among my favorite games! I just hope EA doesn't screw up another title. All their games seem like they're made simply to make money rather than create a new interesting unique and fun gaming experience (like games should).

Well, times change, hardware is getting old. CoD4 and UE3 run on a wide variety of machines. Even Valve is admitting it now, they can't cater to the needs of everyone forever. That's why they were apparently leaning towards the more geared up market with Orange Box.
That's true, it's just that when Half Life 2 was released it ran on most low to moderate spec machines.

Now COD4 is out and I know a lot of people with fairly high-moderate machines that don't even bother. It runs on lots, but I've heard of too many issues (myself experiencing one due to new graphics drivers, who do I blame? NVidia or 2KBoston?) to warrant a thumbs up. I'm pretty harsh though when it comes to games and their engines.

I like my crispyness and completeness and I don't consider any number of graphical advances makes one engine completely better than another (again within reason, source is better than the pacman engine).

Back on topic. I very much hope that L4D isn't bundled with Ep3, because if they're saying 'probably 2009' right now, Ep3 is a LONG way off.

[dontleave]

It can still be bundled, we just don't want it to be Left 4 Dead's FIRST release.

Afterall, HL2... Orange Box... 4 years, no?

[TheDark12]

It can still be bundled, we just don't want it to be Left 4 Dead's FIRST release.
Agreed.

Afterall, HL2... Orange Box... 4 years, no?
I think that's about right, but there was a game in between!