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Tyr
07-19-2008, 10:09 PM
This is my attempt, possibly in vain, to address the reoccurring questions and comments that have been rampant since the new content for Left 4 Dead has been announced. Since I'm still fairly new here I'll tell you now that you are about to learn firsthand that I write a lot.

Most of you know this stuff already but it may be worth a read regardless.

I apologise for anything I've left out or any mistakes I've made. Feel free to add things I've missed out or abuse me for being a dumbass but I ask that you show sportsmanlike behaviour, (i.e. no kicking in the groin or eye-gouging unless the ref isn't looking.) After that I'll edit the corrections in and deny that there were ever any mistakes.
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- What the Hell is with the new character models? They're stupid!
- What are the chances of Valve including the old models as well as the new ones?
- I've seen the new models in videos, they look stupid.
- What's with the new Pipe bomb?
- I heard that the boss infected have been taken out, is this true?
- What's all this about a dead survivor team not having to start way back at the start as it has been up to this point?
- This is stupid, I don't like it. I'm not buying the game.
- What else is going to change? Why is Valve wrecking our game?!
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What the Hell is with the new character models? They're stupid!
Firstly, don't bother complaining. It will not solve anything and by now it has become very annoying to those of us who've already gotten over it.

Secondly, the new models have been made to fulfil a purpose the old ones didn't; one purpose being the easier differentiation between a survivor character and an infected. Another purpose is that the new models fit in with the story and the progression of the outbreak much better than the old ones. They have also been remodelled as a move away from the cliché video game and zombie film characters – this is something you may not agree with but Valve thought differently and before you ask, yes the people at Valve are smarter than you are.

Finally, the old characters have been there from day one, when an under-staffed and under-resourced Turtle Rock put them together. Since the merger Valve, with its many designers, developers and its great deal of experience, has done intense reviewing and decided what is best for the game. These are people who know what they are doing; don't be so insolent as to think you know what's best for Left 4 Dead. These guys' pay checks are determined by this game. Yours isn't.

What are the chances of Valve including the old models as well as the new ones?
Slim to bupkiss. As mentioned the new models achieve what the old ones did not fulfil. It would work against the feel of the game to let them be an option. Rest assured though I'm sure some bright spark with too much time on their hands will mod them in at a later point but I trust all those who don't like the new models now will be over it by that stage and most likely too busy blasting zombies to bother with downloading anything like that.

I've seen the new models in videos, they look stupid.
What you are seeing in the videos is a work in progress. The survivor models are not finished and rest assured they will be worked on to the last minute to ensure they are up to scratch.

This applies to what you are seeing in first person too; the hands are placeholders, they will be improved on.

What's with the new Pipe bomb?
Valve, through extensive play-testing, found that the Pipe bomb didn't work as it was meant to. It was hard to get many kills with it unless your timing and luck were both impeccable – frankly it was better at killing your teammates than your average boss infected is. The Pipe Bomb now has a beeper and it flashes, this both lures infected to it and, (hopefully,) keeps your more idiotic team mates away from it.

You may consider this new easy-to-use Pipe Bomb a tad "noobish" or something similar. However the reality is that Valve found a weapon that was unappealing to the average player and instead of just releasing it in what many would consider an "EA move", Valve changed it in order to make it useful and appealing, adding to the gameplay value rather than being an item people would choose to bypass; another useless add-on that serves no purpose.

Lastly, the messy explosion of all the zombies attracted to your explosive doggy-chew-toy is so totally awesome that if you don't think so you must be completely fucking stupid. In fact if you are one of these people and still want to complain that it's "too noob friendly" I refuse to let you read my writing. Turn off the computer now. Do it. Go and sit in your corner of shame. Now. I am not kidding.

I heard that the boss infected have been taken out, is this true?
Valve has split the game into two different modes. In both versions the boss infected will be reaping merry Hell so don't concern yourself with their safety, they can look after themselves.

As to the versions, one of the versions is campaign mode and the other is versus or "deathmatch" mode. In campaign mode you can only play as the survivors, however the boss infected will still very much be present and controlled by AI. In versus/deathmatch mode the boss infected will be playable by you and your sadistic friends as will the survivors.

What's all this about a dead survivor team not having to start way back at the start as it has been up to this point?
It is true that a dead survivor team is no longer forced to go right back to the very start of a campaign if they are destroyed. If you're the type of masochistic weirdo who is upset by this change, don't be. As previously mentioned Valve have extensively play-tested Left 4 Dead and discovered that although the "right-back-to-the-start-ultimate-punishment" was a good incentive for a team to play well it took away from the fun of the game. Getting to the end of a campaign, dying at the final stand-off and being shipped back to the start may seem like a kind of grin-and-bear-it thing you can tolerate or even enjoy the first few times but you know, I know, we all know that sooner or later you'd get pissed off, start screaming incoherently, break your headset and smash your face repeatedly into your keyboard until the red goo flowed freely.

Remember, although the right-back-to-the-start thing did add to the challenge, this is a game and it is meant to be fun. It's not a second job, it's not your great life's challenge. It's a game and if it ceases to be fun it fails at being a game. The people at Valve are smart enough to realise this; you should be too.

This is stupid, I don't like it. I'm not buying the game.
Get over yourself you twat, I bet you'll buy this game before I do.

What else is going to change? Why is Valve wrecking our game?!
I can not know for sure what, if anything is going to change. Rest assured though that any alterations will be beneficial no matter what your small-minded "I hate change" mentality tells you.
This is not your game and it is not our game. It is Valve's game and believe me when I say they want this to succeed. They very much want it to succeed, they want it to be good, they want to make money off it and they want you to like playing it. They know what they are doing, they have done this kind of thing before and what's more they are well known for being good at what they do.

Cut the whining. Cut the crap. Get over your small inhibitions. This game will rule and you know it.
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End, (for now.)

Waterboy2go
07-19-2008, 10:36 PM
Get over yourself you twat

Well said.

Z2ato
07-20-2008, 12:47 AM
Wow, you really seem pissed off....
Well silly me. Everyone doesn't get common sense nowadays.
Building new concentration camps.
Buying gasoline.
Light a match.
Small minded history!

KashMunni
07-20-2008, 01:36 AM
Wow, you really seem pissed off....


Quiet the rant indeed.

Atari
07-20-2008, 01:40 AM
Nice post Tyr, wp :)

gothichorror13
07-20-2008, 01:41 AM
Buying gasoline.
Light a match.
Small minded history!
lol

Bravo Lead
07-20-2008, 01:42 AM
I think he pretty much said it straight up. A lot of people are just bitching not because they actually disagree but because most people now adays(more so on the internet forums) like to just bitch incoherently.

Hauger
07-20-2008, 01:45 AM
Nice post! Think this should be a pinned post. :)

Bucky
07-20-2008, 01:50 AM
To me the changes are all small except the models. The game still plays the exact same lol. The pipe bomb is better because u have more ways to get things done. If you dont buy the game, well it could be your loss, your if you do buy it, it could also be your loss of money. But Im sure the game will be great. Couple minor changes.

I always thought it was start back with last checkpoint when they made the game. Plus if people cry so much, they can just restart the game lol. The models, someone will remake them if they are that bad. The pipebomb, theres nothing wrong with it, better then the old one.

Steve Cloud
07-20-2008, 02:17 AM
I fully endorse Ty's words.

maaatt
07-20-2008, 02:26 AM
well played tyr im greatful someone finally came out and defended the game <3 thank you

squerl
07-20-2008, 02:32 AM
I absolutely hate the argument that &quot;Valve knows best, trust Valve, Valve will do amazing things because Valve is God&quot;. HL1 was amazing and innovative, as was HL2 (six years of development). Unfortunately, the only original games they've made have been single player: Bought CS, bought DOD, bought TFC.

The only game that I have to go on to judge their multiplayer development is TF2, which is a well designed game with amazing art direction, but was a big disappointment for me. They took out all the crazy shit of TFC and made sure that everybody has a great time even if it's their first time playing an FPS. I'm fine with making games new-player friendly, but to me, in order to have a long lasting game like CS you need to enable the player to become really frickin' good. In CS, you always have the drive to get better and better to become the one player on the server that can basically just destroy everybody. Without that drive or ability to become great, I don't see what the long-term picture of TF2 looks like.

From what we can hear of Valve's external playtesting, it sounds like they like to focus on the first-time experiences of players. To me, that's the way you SHOULD test for single player since the experience is all about the first time. For multiplayer, I don't give a rat's ass what it'll be like to me for the first time. I care about the 500th or 1,000th time. After I know every trick and have seen every situation, will it still be good enough to keep me wanting to play?

This is all just my opinion, but I'm trying to point out that not everybody thinks that every single thing that Valve does is OMGOMGOMG.

Anyway, enough of that..

Another purpose is that the new models fit in with the story and the progression of the outbreak much better than the old ones. They have also been remodelled as a move away from the cliché video game and zombie film characters – this is something you may not agree with but Valve thought differently and before you ask, yes the people at Valve are smarter than you are.

I'm not really sure where you come up with the old characters being cliche. It seems to me a whole bunch of zombie movies are about normal people stuck in a newly messed up situation. The reason I liked the old characters was because they looked unique and not any specific stereotype, and they looked real. I'm sure there were other immune survivors, but because they did not work together they were all killed. I liked the old characters because they were rugged and looked like they had been surviving the apocalypse for some time, and maybe now they've run out of supplies and need to take drastic action.

Making them look like they just now got entered into the apocalypse doesn't make sense to me, because I don't know how a teenage girl has learned so quickly to use guns as well as a veteran.

You'll notice that this is all opinion.

My point is, just because people disagree with what Valve does doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they have a different opinion. Everybody here is welcome to express their opinion. It wouldn't be a very good discussion if everybody just went &quot;Valve did it, it is great, Valve did it, it must be the best decision&quot;.

Florian88
07-20-2008, 03:32 AM
Ok, so here is what i think about this.

First about the character models.
It's just... ok fuck it im gonna jerk off

Gforcemember45
07-20-2008, 04:01 AM
You have our support tyr

armored cow
07-20-2008, 05:13 AM
Pretty good.

Zed
07-20-2008, 07:10 AM
I still don't see why they had to shave Francis' head. They could've just as easily distinguished him in some other way (the saturation of his colors, the palette, etc), but instead, they shaved him. Ghey.

Everything else, I don't mind so much.

theghoul22
07-20-2008, 07:25 AM
your so bad ass tyr , it turns us on

killion237
07-20-2008, 07:26 AM
Quoting: Tyr
Another purpose is that the new models fit in with the story and the progression of the outbreak much better than the old ones. They have also been remodelled as a move away from the cliché video game and zombie film characters – this is something you may not agree with but Valve thought differently and before you ask, yes the people at Valve are smarter than you are.


I'm not really sure where you come up with the old characters being cliche. It seems to me a whole bunch of zombie movies are about normal people stuck in a newly messed up situation. The reason I liked the old characters was because they looked unique and not any specific stereotype, and they looked real. I'm sure there were other immune survivors, but because they did not work together they were all killed. I liked the old characters because they were rugged and looked like they had been surviving the apocalypse for some time, and maybe now they've run out of supplies and need to take drastic action.

Making them look like they just now got entered into the apocalypse doesn't make sense to me, because I don't know how a teenage girl has learned so quickly to use guns as well as a veteran.

You'll notice that this is all opinion.

My point is, just because people disagree with what Valve does doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they have a different opinion. Everybody here is welcome to express their opinion. It wouldn't be a very good discussion if everybody just went &quot;Valve did it, it is great, Valve did it, it must be the best decision&quot;.
Exactly how I feel too

USS_Stud
07-20-2008, 08:13 AM
squerl is pretty much right. A lot of the gaming industry pulls that crap all the time too. They'll take a good game, butcher the FUCK out of it for casual players, and this is what happens;
1)Casual players get bored and find another game because... well... they're casual players.
2)The regular players/fans/enthusiests have NOTHING to work with and quit due to disappointment. Or... just play disappointed trying not to waste their money.
And possibly 3)Online is a ghosttown of elitist prick, faggots.

BUT, I have been playing on Shaun's CS server and, trying to, comparing it to L4D. A lot less zombies that L4D, but damn they're sneaky mother fuckers >:|... I'm hoping TR made the right choices, choices that don't rape replayability. Considering I've never beta tested L4D.

And if someone from TR/Valve is reading this, if you're still working on L4D please don't base anymore in-game statistics off of retards like the guys at GT. They don't need a map, and deserve to die... in the game. But if you haven't... then disregard that.

Atari
07-20-2008, 08:35 AM
Problem is, Valve are a business and their first priority is making money.

Obviously the best way of doing that is to hold on to those players who play for the first time.

Considering they are a business, they're one of the most community focused that I'm aware of and their approach should be an example to all developers.

AckAck
07-20-2008, 08:45 AM
&quot;one purpose being the easier differentiation between a survivor character and an infected.&quot;

I'm sorry, but if you can't tell the difference you're an idiot.
REGARDLESS of what the survivors look like, they are the ones with the flashlights, guns, and are yelling in coherent sentences. They even glow green (now blue?) before they step out from around a corner so there isn't really any risk there.

I'm guessing that the same people who playtested and had trouble identifying the survivors were the same ones that got stuck at the Antlion part in HL2 for an hour.

Atari
07-20-2008, 09:04 AM
I got stuck in some pitch-dark area of HL2:EP1 and haven't played it since :E

Sifer2
07-20-2008, 09:21 AM
Yeah I think some people do not make any effort to pay attention an so need to the game to tell them exactly what to do constantly. Hence the new cartoon character models that look like they belong in Team Fortress 2. See that guy that looks like the black cousin of the Scout don't shoot him lol. And if that wasn't enough now there is little help pop ups for everything. Looks its a gun &quot;Press E to PICK UP GUN!&quot; oh look my buddy is on the ground dying &quot; Press E to HELP YER BUDDY!!!&quot; hey its a radio &quot;Press E to CALL FOR HELP DUMBASS!&quot; god Valve must be wanting the mentally challenged to be able to complete this game now.

Steve Cloud
07-20-2008, 09:28 AM
And if that wasn't enough now there is little help pop ups for everything. Looks its a gun &quot;Press E to PICK UP GUN!&quot; oh look my buddy is on the ground dying &quot; Press E to HELP YER BUDDY!!!&quot; hey its a radio &quot;Press E to CALL FOR HELP DUMBASS!&quot; god Valve must be wanting the mentally challenged to be able to complete this game now.


Those things will almost certainly go away after you've gotten the hang of it. If you keep killing your friends of course its going to keep reminding you not to, but after a few playthroughs it'll be obvious you don't need to be reminded how to help up your friend unless you're pressing E instead of holding it.

In which case, you ARE a dumbass and need assistance. And if the little hints towards the start are useless clutter, I'm also equally sure there'll be an option to turn it off, like in Garry's Mod.

ucdeath
07-20-2008, 11:27 AM
its been said that they turn off after you've been playing the game for a while. i just really hope they dont give to much away like the direction you need to be heading in because i want to find that out for myself. i dont need or want some1 babysitting me for the first few play throughs. i WANT to get lost and raped by a hord of zombies down some back ally well my teamates r off wandering around. i want a hard game that i can get good at not some thing where i get led by the hand all the way through.

Jesus123
07-20-2008, 11:34 AM
The only downside I see to the new pipe bomb is that player controlled zombie bosses can easily tell if there is a bomb nearby thats been thrown. So I doubt your going to be killing any bosses with them.

sir monster
07-20-2008, 11:59 AM
@squerl
maybe they still survived for a long time, but showered and shaved and stole some new threads for their escape attempt (probable death).

besides, what highschool kid hasnt seen how to work a gun 50 billion times, on tv, movies, games... ive never held a gun in my life and im fully confident i could operate one if a situation were to rise where i had to. but maybe she got picked up by the war vet soon after the outbreak and he taught her..

whats with all this backstory bullshit anyway? if you dont give a shit about the first time you play it but the 500th, why does the trivial backstory given to the characters (who are only needed to distinguish from the undead and eachother) matter at all? it doesnt, because from game 1, and well past 500th, you wont be playing these characters, its gonna be you vs the undead youre not going to be pissed that you let louis die. youre going to be pissed that you got killed.

while i would understand your hesitation to put faith in valve over their lack of multiplayer experience.. it is worth mentioning that turtle rock IS valve now so... if you could trust them before... why not now that they have more resources and experience to direct to the project. or do you think that the old valve guys are going to take over the new valve guy's project and fuck it up and the new valve guy is going to let it happen because..?

im not saying there arent fanbois out there who will fight tooth and nail for a game simply because of the developers...
im just saying that i find your lack of faith.. disturbing *vader force choke*

squerl
07-20-2008, 12:06 PM
whats with all this backstory bullshit anyway? if you dont give a shit about the first time you play it but the 500th, why does the trivial backstory given to the characters (who are only needed to distinguish from the undead and eachother) matter at all? it doesnt, because from game 1, and well past 500th, you wont be playing these characters, its gonna be you vs the undead youre not going to be pissed that you let louis die. youre going to be pissed that you got killed.

I was arguing against one of the two points given by Tyr of why the new models were introduced: &quot;Another purpose is that the new models fit in with the story and the progression of the outbreak much better than the old ones. They have also been remodelled as a move away from the cliché video game and zombie film characters&quot;

or do you think that the old valve guys are going to take over the new valve guy's project and fuck it up and the new valve guy is going to let it happen because..?

From what is known, there are 10 Valve South guys and 30-40 Valve North guys working on the project.

Tyr
07-20-2008, 12:25 PM
I absolutely hate the argument that &quot;Valve knows best, trust Valve, Valve will do amazing things because Valve is God&quot;. HL1 was amazing and innovative, as was HL2 (six years of development). Unfortunately, the only original games they've made have been single player: Bought CS, bought DOD, bought TFC....
Thanks for the rebuttal Squerl, good points.

Firstly the &quot;Valve knows best&quot; argument I still find is a good one. Your comments on TF2 and it's development are valid and perhaps you're right in Valve making multiplayer games that are a bit to casual, games in which &quot;getting good&quot; isn't really part of it; I imagine that's Valve's 'single player game&quot; mentality coming into it. In my opinion this isn't a problem because personally I hate the online elitism crap that so many people are caught up in - Counter Strike is the prime example of this. That kind of thing is starting to seep through to TF2 now too, people being called unskilled for picking a particular class etc. Fuck &quot;skill&quot;, it's a computer game.

That's just me though. I guess I defend Valve a lot because they do seem to cater for casual gamers like myself; that and their marketing strategy of &quot;be nice to people so they'll like you and buy your stuff&quot; is one that I can't help but appreciate. I've looked into how much thought goes into their games, the fact that if they feel they're not done yet they won't release - unlike EA for instance, (it's a love/hate thing with the release delays to be honest,) and the fact that if something isn't right they'll fix it.

As to where I got the &quot;cliche characters&quot; argument, I read it in an interview, although now that you mention it I'can't remember if it was ther reviewer's opinion or a Valve rep's. Although the old characters maybe weren't cliche as such I do think that the new characters are a lot less like anything we've seen in other games. I mean one of the heroes is a lanky office worker, where else do you see that?

As to Zoey's sudden expertise with firearms, I'm not sure what firearms experience you have but a gun is a piss-easy thing to use, that's why eight year-olds in Africa are recruited to the army.
My point is, just because people disagree with what Valve does doesn't mean they're wrong, it just means they have a different opinion. Everybody here is welcome to express their opinion. It wouldn't be a very good discussion if everybody just went &quot;Valve did it, it is great, Valve did it, it must be the best decision&quot;.
Point taken but I think people should be reminded that Valve are professional game developers and yes, they do know what they're doing and no, they're not just changing things to piss you off.

By the way, I'm not pissed-off, it's just how I write. I need to add more smileys so people know not to take me seriously.

sir monster
07-20-2008, 01:02 PM
well they did change them in a way to reflect the fast spread of the infection. whats cliche is a matter of opinion i suppose but i still dont get what your argument is i guess. because none of it effects the game in the slightest except to improve on the game mechanic they were put in for in the first place.
i guess somewhere in the last year things changed and i didnt catch the train. but for me the game is about the game mechanics in a zombie setting. the backstory has always been about 1 paragraph, and not really important in the slightest. now they change how some stuff looks and suddenly the backstory matters.

but whos the project lead? i mean, theres 2 bosses at where i work. and they still run the place, not the employees. i just think youre implying some things unfairly with no real evidence to back it up. TR worked on this game for years. to imply that they would let someone else change it in a way they disagreed with... cause they outnumbered them or whatever...well im not buying it.

so ill agree that the &quot;valve = great&quot; arguments are stupid. but because they are unsupported. not that they are locking valve south out of their own project or anything at all like that.

besides, i love valve and i for one welcome our evil overlords.

dontleave
07-20-2008, 01:08 PM
I got stuck in some pitch-dark area of HL2:EP1 and haven't played it since :E

Is this after the train wreck? I did the same thing... In the tunnel. Then my internet died and I had nothing to do but play all the HL games.