Left 4 Dead - Not Perfect

[G_X]

ITT: The idea that Left 4 Dead, while unique and fun, could have been designed better if the developers had put some more thought into it.

Think of StarCraft - everything is balanced, every strategy has a counter, and the depth is infinite. Every single aspect of the game exists for an important purpose, and the combination of these led to a game that transformed the way we see competitive gaming.

Left 4 Dead could have been that... but what we have now is a broken game, and Valve doesn't seem very eager to fix it. I don't think that they can, honestly. The problems with Left 4 Dead can't be solved with quick fixes.

Someone once said something about an old version of Counter-Strike. It was incredibly buggy, it had like 5 different weapons, and it was generally shit... but everyone loved it. There was some part of Counter-Strike that you just couldn't get away from. So, they worked on it, fixed it, added more content, and now it's the #2 most played online game in the world.

Here's hoping they do that for Left 4 Dead.

...

:(

[Nuttz]

what we have now is a broken game
I wouldn't go as far as to say that. The only thing that really needs to be adressed is a counter for closet camping and/or melee spamming. Even as it is now, I would gladly keep playing if ir stayed the same. I have run into people in almost every game that have called my tactics "cheap". I for one don't use closet camping because I know that if I have an organised teram we have the skill to kill them when they're not doing it, because if they resort to it in the first place they mustn't be very good. Unless of course you're not talking about closet camping :P

[Flex]

Which problems are you talking about?

[Xerosnake90]

The things that need to be fixed are 'blocking' in versus mode and the ability to skip crescendos. That would make the game go back to its same intenseness as when before we knew of these things. Than of course do a few more things but that'll do wonders just by that.

[Dead Fish]

You are comparing Left 4 Dead to games from 98/99 that did something new at the time, because they were the first. This is a really bad comparison.

Besides,
Which problems are you talking about?

[Funky Biscuits]

Not another one of these threads.
Go to the steam forums to complain!

[REDSHARK_]

HERESY!

REPENT YOUR SINS! AND PRAY TO THE AI DIRECTOR FOR FORGIVENESS IN HIS ALL SEEING EYES!

MAY THE TANKS HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL HEATHEN!!

[Mustacio]

not many campaigns and stupid ass griefers are my only problems with this game, more so for the latter. i swear, 1 out of every 3 players is a douche bag joining a game for one reason: to kill the entire team and wait to get kicked.

[PSOLaguna]

Think of StarCraft

Left 4 Dead could have been that...

RTS/FPS comparison, tsk tsk.

Someone once said something about an old version of Counter-Strike. It was incredibly buggy, it had like 5 different weapons, and it was generally shit... but everyone loved it. There was some part of Counter-Strike that you just couldn't get away from. So, they worked on it, fixed it, added more content, and now it's the #2 most played online game in the world.

Considering how popular L4D is now. Imagine what will happen almost 9 years down the road content wise and even if Valve decided to take break and work on something else. You cant honestly sit there and tell me that the SDK wont keep you busy. Some of the best times I had on CSS was playing the zombie mod on user maps.

[Nuttz]

1 out of every 3 players is a douche bag
Man, you Americans must have alot of douche bags. I've never played with someone like that.

[PSOLaguna]

Man, you Americans must have alot of douche bags. I've never played with someone like that.

What nationality are you?

[GamerKing]

I've
Considered
9 years down the road
to kill the entire team.

Really, i never would have thought it.

[fishing4ducks]

Lol Nuttz,

I only have once, I was on infected team and we were destroying the other team so badly that at the start of NM4 one of the guys incapped 2 of his teammates in the saferoom whilst the other made a run for it (got huntered) and then me (other hunter) pounced in through the saferoom door.

needless to say his teammates weren't interested in getting me off him after what he did to them :D.............................. what a douche'

[GamerKing]

I only have once, I was on infected team and we were destroying the other team so badly that at the start of NM4 one of the guys incapped 2 of his teammates in the saferoom whilst the other made a run for it (got huntered) and then me (other hunter) pounced in through the saferoom door.

and so another prophecy foretold.

[theliberator1]

the game isnt broken, people are broken. they dont want to learn, they dont listen (to cries for help, instructions, music que and infected burps/growls) they blame everything bad on their team mates and not on their crappy hardware/connection (i admit, my connection sucks, I'm working on it) or lack of skills.

there should be a single player mode built into the game for "vs practice" however. its annoying when you a noob joins and asks
"why cant i puke on them from here?" "short range dummy"
"how do i get more ammo? the buy button doesnt work." "this isnt CS"

in fact have single player as a REQUIREMENT before allowing an unlock of multiplayer. something along the lines of having to get the 4 campaigns defeated on normal first.

[PSOLaguna]

in fact have single player as a REQUIREMENT before allowing an unlock of multiplayer. something along the lines of having to get the 4 campaigns defeated on normal first.


Some people cant beat it on normal. That doesnt mean it should exclude them from the multiplayer.

[GamerKing]

Some people are just so pants on head retarded they can't finish the game on normal difficulty...testicles


fixed.

[PSOLaguna]

fixed.


You can sugar coat it all you want. You know its true, lol.

[Infest0125]

Flawed with glitches, bugs, and exploits, but no broken.

Simple as that.

[bluespherex]

GX, i just have to say loooooooooooooooool.
U dont even mention what is not good about it and what should be fixed.
Dont compare l4d and starcraft(my opinions is starcraft boring, but thats just me). Starcraft is a totaly different game, which has to be perfectly balanced to play well in multiplayer. L4d doesnt have to be balanced at all( but it is pretty much balanced). For example, u play versus: what should be balanced differently there? nothing, whats the point, each team gets to play both sides, if one side were to strong, then the other team which played it first would then switch to the weaker one. So at the end, iits fair. I could understand ure argument of balance, if u had to choose a side and play it through the campaign. So no my friend, ure argument doesnt hold, it is not a starcraft, its a L4D. And also, every strategie in L4D has a counter, i cant recall any situation where i wouldnt have know what to do. e.g. they are in the closet?.. what u do? simple, boomer go in, explode on them, in that same second smoka grabs one and pulls him out, then hunter goes in an stalls them, 2nd hunter steals prey of smoka and does as much dmg, smoka runs away and waits to recharge. so simple. next example: BH 3( i think its 3) crescendo in the little room (were u open the door and alarm starts). Boomer goes through went explode, they get stunned, smoka grabs one, pulls him out, other trying to save him, hunter comes in and pounces when they cross the door... and so forth. other one: melee spamming and smoka cant get one out? 2 hunters go in with different timing and pounce, if first one doesnt pounce, the second one will pretty surely pounce one(always works for us) then comes smoka in action and grabs one out and boomer pukes them, so they cant save him. There is for every action a counter action in L4D, i do not know what game u played, but it surely wasnt L4D, or u just had sucky teams and u should play with some friends and get some tactics up ur sleeves.

I just have to say it again, just plain stupid to compare L4D with starcraft

[bluespherex]

""goes through VENT (not went)

[PSOLaguna]

""goes through VENT (not went)

Edit button dood.

[Small Little P00]

http://racetalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/crybaby.jpg (http://racetalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/crybaby.jpg)

Get over it or rage quit. It's still the best co-op multiplayer game at the moment.

[Grieverlionhart]

Simple way to stop these problems. Have another AI director that watches players fullfil certain criteria such as blocking paths and give them about a minuite to move the object or suffer a kick from vs mode for 3 days. As for closets, since there's no respawning in vs why not just lock the doors and make them unbreakable

[PSOLaguna]

Get over it or rage quit. It's still the best co-op multiplayer game at the moment.

No wai, Obscure is!

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/obscure/review. html (http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/obscure/review.html)

[Plankie]

u play versus: what should be balanced differently there? nothing, whats the point, each team gets to play both sides, if one side were to strong, then the other team which played it first would then switch to the weaker one. So at the end, iits fair. I could understand ure argument of balance, if u had to choose a side and play it through the campaign. So no my friend, ure argument doesnt hold, it is not a starcraft, its a L4D.

He has a few points. Even though he talks like Mario.

[bluespherex]

Sorry for mario speech Plankie, im wroking in my lab, so i had to speedrush through it. ;P
take care
and thx for tip with edit button, didnt think about it

[PSOLaguna]

He has a few points. Even though he talks like Mario.

I couldnt just go with one...

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/lolcat-funny-picture-mario-cat.jpg (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/lolcat-funny-picture-mario-cat.jpg)
http://www.bsideblog.com/images/2008/01/lolcat.jpg (http://www.bsideblog.com/images/2008/01/lolcat.jpg)

[lawlhat]

L4D is still one of the best games on the market today. Comparing to to Starcraft, a game with completely different gameplay and target, is just stupid.

[Junch]

guys, stop wasting your time. this guy is obviously just looking for attention, don't play his game. we all know left 4 dead friggin rocks, whether or not it has bugs.

[PSOLaguna]

guys, stop wasting your time. this guy is obviously just looking for attention, don't play his game. we all know left 4 dead friggin rocks, whether or not it has bugs.

Rocks always have bugs under them.

[DarkevilPT]

I agree the game is not perfect as i expected it to be..

[UKMD Elmo]

Left 4 Dead could have been that... but what we have now is a broken game

You can't please some people. If it started raining hotdogs, gold and fit women people like him would complain about the lack of tomato ketchup. Or whipped cream.

[_Omerta_]

Regaurdless, he has a point. The game is riddled with every day bugs and glitches. Just the other day was playing in a scrim and the other teams 2nd tank on BH5 decided not to spawn for them. Wtf?

The melee to hunter pounce ratio needs to be looked at as well, i feel like if we zoomed l4d out to an over head view it would just be a beefed up zombie version of the game Gauntlet legends.

Besides, Diablo 3 is definitly gonna give l4d a run for its money..about 40-60% of wow players are moving to it probably gonna blow box offices away.

[PSOLaguna]

Regaurdless

Yes...regaurdless....lol.

Besides, Diablo 3 is definitly gonna give l4d a run for its money

There we go again...comparing two different genres, tsk tsk.

about 40-60% of wow players are moving to it probably gonna blow box offices away.

Where are you getting these figures anyway??

[_Omerta_]

Where are you getting these figures anyway
from my figurines PSH where do you think i get figures from your mom?!

There we go again...comparing two different genres, tsk tsk.

Yeah well if you zoomed L4D out about 100 feet into the air you could quite literary call it Gauntlet legends.

[PSOLaguna]

Yeah well if you zoomed L4D out about 100 feet into the air you could quite literary call it Gauntlet legends.

So if you tucked your penis between your legs could I literary call you to a woman then?

[_Omerta_]

Quoting: _Omerta_
Yeah well if you zoomed L4D out about 100 feet into the air you could quite literary call it Gauntlet legends.


So if you tucked your penis between your legs could I literary call you to a woman then?

No sir, mangina's do not dictate for transsexualism good day :(

[gehn6]

I hate when people make threads bitching and then don't reply back to what people think about what they said.

ITT: The idea that Left 4 Dead, while unique and fun, could have been designed better if the developers had put some more thought into it.

That's just stupid. The game wouldn't have been created if they dev's didn't put thought into it. You don't think they had testers testing the shit out of the game, having them say what needs to be fixed?

Left 4 Dead could have been that... but what we have now is a broken game, and Valve doesn't seem very eager to fix it. I don't think that they can, honestly. The problems with Left 4 Dead can't be solved with quick fixes.

lol. they DO seem eager to fix it, they have a plan to release a huge patch with the DLC. "But Gehn, they should come out with that patch of fixes NOW!" Well, as you said yourself "The problems with Left 4 Dead can't be solved with quick fixes."

So, they worked on it, fixed it, added more content, and now it's the #2 most played online game in the world.

CS wasn't fixed in a day. It's going to take just as much time to work on making L4D better.

[Stuffinator]

Regaurdless, he has a point.
No!

First of all, there are thousands of satisfied players, who still play L4D even if it's SOOOO BUGGED!!!!!!!

-.-

Second is:
Valve doesn't seem very eager to fix it.
What??? Last patch was released a month ago and fixed a lot and just because there isn't a patch every week he thinks valve isn't eager? Hello? Looks like someone isn't very familiar with softwaredeveloping! And again, the team behind L4D is smaler then the CS-Team was!

[SlainPwner666]

I mean really?
You come onto the LEFT 4 DEAD fan forums to complain about LEFT 4 DEAD. This is gonna get you as far as trying to clear a minefield with a jackhammer
I do believe the others managed to get all my possible points, so I now leave this thread

[Dead Fish]

Guys, you gotta be able to take some criticism, too. Calling troll is an easy cop-out. This thread is not trolling since it seems to be his honest opinion and you are using the word wrongly.

Problem is, G_X didn't make any actual points to discuss. Alright, L4D is not perfect. I agree, what game is perfect after all?

This stays open for now, so the OP has at least some time to respond, although the discussion hasn't gone anywhere so far.

[The Lorax]

Problem is, G_X didn't make any actual points to discuss.

That's why I'm calling him a troll. I couldn't care less if he doesn't like the game or wants to discuss the problems with it, but G_X didn't mention any of these problems in the original post and has not yet replied to any of the comments. Comparing it to other popular games is just another sign of typical troll behavior. If I hear something that barks like a dog, I don't think it's a duck.

[mshield]

No game is perfect, even Starcraft *equips flamesuit*. What matters is whether you keep coming back to play it, whether the developers keep coming back to fix and add to it, and whether after all the patches, all the bugs, all the griefers and haters, you still want to play one more game.

God Bless Valve *salutes*

But seriously, besides the obvious bugs I find it a really enjoyable game - far from "broken".

[tp500]

All that I can say is that Left 4 Dead ended up being something different than what it started. I really wish it focused on horror a little more than OH SHIT! I dunno, I hope someone really pulls of a nice mod that is well done with slow zombies. I really want to have the feeling of desperation and horror whilst playing with 3 other good buddies, where the game is different everytime, but the horror is always there. Left 4 Dead didn't do that for me.

[Keptron]

That's why I'm calling him a troll.
Agreed. But, if he thinks L4D is broke ... can't do anything since this is how he feel about the game.

[nerVe]

smoka smoka smoka smoka smoka smoka smoka
Can I ask, what the fuck is a "smoka"?

Brb, going to rage in another thread.

[Funky Biscuits]

Life: Not Perfect.

[yourbadmega]

all of the greifers and noobs will quit out in a while or learn to get better making a better game as time moves on

[Deadly]

Quoting: PSOLaguna
Some people are just so pants on head retarded they can't finish the game on normal difficulty...testicles


fixed.

All of this from Mr. Kill her to death.

[Icy Lemon]

Meh, no games perfect. Just accept left 4 dead for what it is; a great game, and stop focusing on the negative's.

[Infest0125]

G_X, you need to give us some actual points here instead of just comparing it to a game in an entirely different genre.

Every game is flawed, and Left 4 Dead has its fair amount, and when you say Valve isn't eager to fix it, when exactly have they been quick with their work? They've followed through in most cases now, haven't they?

[G_X]

OK, OK, I'm back. I'm really tired right now, so I think I'll just respond to the first guy that directly referred to me.U dont even mention what is not good about it and what should be fixed.I thought everyone would know what I was talking about. :\
<div class="quote">L4d doesnt have to be balanced at all( but it is pretty much balanced).</div> Left 4 Dead does not require the same kind of balance as Counter-Strike, but it still has to be balanced. Right now, it's not correctly balanced, and as a result, it's not fun.<div class="quote">For example, u play versus: what should be balanced differently there? nothing, whats the point, each team gets to play both sides, if one side were to strong, then the other team which played it first would then switch to the weaker one. So at the end, iits fair.</div>Yes, it's fair, but it's not any fun when the Survivors just camp in the corner and what not. <div class="quote">And also, every strategie in L4D has a counter, i cant recall any situation where i wouldnt have know what to do. e.g. they are in the closet?.. what u do? simple, boomer go in, explode on them, in that same second smoka grabs one and pulls him out, then hunter goes in an stalls them, 2nd hunter steals prey of smoka and does as much dmg, smoka runs away and waits to recharge. so simple. next example: BH 3( i think its 3) crescendo in the little room (were u open the door and alarm starts). Boomer goes through went explode, they get stunned, smoka grabs one, pulls him out, other trying to save him, hunter comes in and pounces when they cross the door... and so forth. other one: melee spamming and smoka cant get one out? 2 hunters go in with different timing and pounce, if first one doesnt pounce, the second one will pretty surely pounce one(always works for us) then comes smoka in action and grabs one out and boomer pukes them, so they cant save him.</div>Yes, those are counters, but it's nearly impossible for pugs to pull off. The counter should be as easy as the strategy itself. <div class="quote">There is for every action a counter action in L4D, i do not know what game u played, but it surely wasnt L4D, or u just had sucky teams</div>That's my problem. Every action has a counter... if you have a good team. Infected can defeat corner camping... if you have a good team. The problem is, the very concept of the game basically ensures that your team will not be that good. It's not fun as a party game when you get pwned by things they can do easily, but you can't counter.

I dunno, I'm mostly talking outta my ass here. I just wanted to point out how Left 4 Dead could have been a truly fantastic game, but as it stands, it just has the novelty and niche appeal. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic. I'll probably change my mind when the Survival Pack comes out. Until then, I'll play some TF2 and Fire Emblem.

:\

[Invader Jay]

HERESY!

REPENT YOUR SINS! AND PRAY TO THE AI DIRECTOR FOR FORGIVENESS IN HIS ALL SEEING EYES!

MAY THE TANKS HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL HEATHEN!!
I lol'd

[Infest0125]

Yes, it's fair, but it's not any fun when the Survivors just camp in the corner and what not.

I think I remember a while ago you referred to corner camping and said it was a tactic. Changing views now eh? ;)

But yes, now that you have some points we can have a much more legitimate discussion.

First off, there is definitely a need to some sort of counter to corner camping. Smoker's smoke doing damage, survivors are pushed a little more away from each other, stuff like that.

As for bad teams, obvious solution is to play with friends, but there should be an actual lock on versus mode until you beat some campaign, any campaign really so you at least get a sense of the co-op aspect. Or anything else that someone has to suggest.

And it is definitely not balanced currently, still needs some balancing and obvious glitches that need fixing.

I agree Left 4 Dead could've been much better if more time was taken to adjust these small things, but if that was done than we would've been bitching about not playing the game period. It is still fun, best solution is to get a group in a versus game and agree on no exploits/cheap tactics.

[Xaos Falcon]

jesus christ you guys are fucking morons. Why is it whenever someone puts an RTS and an FPS in the same sentence everyone is like OMG DUNT CMPARE FPS WID RTS U RTART LUL. He was comparing how Starcraft is way more balanced than left 4 dead, you fucking idiots. Learn to fucking read. Maybe you should, before going fucking bananas over a legitimate comparison, kill yourself instead. Then you wouldn't have to post anything to 'correct' someone ever again! yay!

[SlainPwner666]

jesus christ you guys are fucking morons. Why is it whenever someone puts an RTS and an FPS in the same sentence everyone is like OMG DUNT CMPARE FPS WID RTS U RTART LUL. He was comparing how Starcraft is way more balanced than left 4 dead, you fucking idiots. Learn to fucking read. Maybe you should, before going fucking bananas over a legitimate comparison, kill yourself instead. Then you wouldn't have to post anything to 'correct' someone ever again! yay!

Holy shit take a pill
What they were referring to, is that starcraft and other RTS's, give you the chance to Build counters to whatever the enemy throws at you. For example, uh, if there is a MG nest, build a tank, theres a tank, build AT infantry. You have to adapt in the field in an FPS.

[Infest0125]

Xaos, you need to calm down....

[Psyche]

jesus christ you guys are fucking morons. Why is it whenever someone puts an RTS and an FPS in the same sentence everyone is like OMG DUNT CMPARE FPS WID RTS U RTART LUL. He was comparing how Starcraft is way more balanced than left 4 dead, you fucking idiots. Learn to fucking read. Maybe you should, before going fucking bananas over a legitimate comparison, kill yourself instead. Then you wouldn't have to post anything to 'correct' someone ever again! yay!


why would you compare starcraft with l4d anyway.

[lawlhat]

I mean really, he does have a point, but he over-exaggerated it. Valve does need to fix quite a few bugs, but on the other hand it will take a while. And saying Valve should have put more thought into it is silly. They worked on this game for maybe 2-3 years and TRS started work on it 4 years ago. It has undergone many changes, and is overall a much more polished game. Not to mention their track record as the standard of quality for all games. G_X has genuine complaints, but he doesnt really look on the bright side.

[awdrgy123]

the counter against a team winning is teamwork.
the counter against a better team is better teamwork!!

[G_X]

I think I remember a while ago you referred to corner camping and said it was a tactic. Changing views now eh? ;)

I maintain it's a tactic. It's just not a very fun one, and I believe it shouldn't exist in the game. As long as it does exist, though, abuse the hell out of it.

@everyone else: I pretty much agree. Thanks for the perspective.

[LordTommy]

I agree Junch. I admit sometimes the team I'm on doesn't play well and we get owned. But other times we go well together and it's an awesome game. I don't see any glitches or errors that can't be traced back to a player's skill or luck.

This thing with the tank, I usually wait until we kill of the player infected, then we go after the tank and concentrate all our fire on it.. It sorta helps knowing that someone probably hid it in the safe room, and that an npc is controlling it.

If it helps, heading the tanks head really helps kill it faster...I dk.. hope you have a better experience

[Nemesis_vs_Leon]

it needs 1 more big boss and a revolver for 3rd tier 1 weapon, that's it.

Team Fortress 2 has counters for everything actually.

[Infest0125]

I maintain it's a tactic. It's just not a very fun one, and I believe it shouldn't exist in the game. As long as it does exist, though, abuse the hell out of it.

At least you agreed its not fun.

[PSOLaguna]

jesus christ you guys are fucking morons.

I lold what a douche.

Why is it whenever someone puts an RTS and an FPS in the same sentence everyone is like OMG DUNT CMPARE FPS WID RTS U RTART LUL. He was comparing how Starcraft is way more balanced than left 4 dead, you fucking idiots.

Youre still talking about two very different genres. You can try and attempt to make it sound logical but its unfair to either game to compare it to any other that isnt made by the same company. Much genre or even time frame. Since Starcraft has had a considerable amount of time to have its kinks worked out compared to L4D, which was made by Valve, which came out like 4 months ago.

you fucking idiots. Learn to fucking read. Maybe you should, before going fucking bananas over a legitimate comparison, kill yourself instead. Then you wouldn't have to post anything to 'correct' someone ever again! yay!

I can only hope you took your own advice and killed yourself for you going &quot;fucking bananas&quot; over a clearly not very legitimate comparison of two very different games.

[Warhawk]

BEHOLD: The reason l4d isn't getting many major updates at the moment!http://www.teamfortress.com/scoutupdate/

[PSOLaguna]

BEHOLD: The reason l4d isn't getting many major updates at the moment!http://www.teamfortress.com/scoutupdate/


Ill care if/when it comes to 360 :P

[gehn6]

BEHOLD: The reason l4d isn't getting many major updates at the moment!http://www.teamfortress.com/scoutupdate/

Except that is a different team who does that.....

[Deadly]

and as a result, it's not fun.
Opinion, therefore void
I thought everyone would know what I was talking about. :\
Assuming, it is not fun
but it's not any fun
Opinion, therefore void
Yes, those are counters, but it's nearly impossible for pugs to pull off. The counter should be as easy as the strategy itself.
Assumption and a dumb insight to what a strategy actually is
. The problem is, the very concept of the game basically ensures that your team will not be that good.
So valve designed this game around the idea that everyone should have a bad team?
I just wanted to point out how Left 4 Dead could have been a truly fantastic game, but as it stands, it just has the novelty and niche appeal.
Opinion, therefore void
Maybe I'm just being pessimistic.
Indeed
I dunno, I'm mostly talking outta my ass here
Got that right

[Keptron]

Nice points Deadly